S2E3 Behind the Bob - the one with Mary Whenman

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with

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me, Carrie-Ann Wade.

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This

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Carrie-Ann Wade: podcast is all about developing communications leaders

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of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

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You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

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be a special guest or two popping up.

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So I hope you enjoy.

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Welcome to this episode of Behind the Bob with me, Carrie-Ann, and I'm delighted

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to be here today with Mary Whenman, who is the Director of Group Communications

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with the British Business Bank.

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And I'm really excited that Mary's agreed to have this conversation with me today.

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So welcome, Mary.

Mary Whenman: 00:00:48

Thank you, Carrie-Ann.

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Delighted to be here.

Mary Whenman: 00:00:51

Carrie-Ann Wade: Brilliant.

Mary Whenman: 00:00:51

Thank you.

Mary Whenman: 00:00:52

As listeners will know in this series of Behind the Bob, we are talking

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to some brilliant communications directors to find out a little bit

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more, mostly because I'm nosy, but in the hope that it helps our listeners

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about those comms director's careers today, what's been the highs, lows, and

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advice that communications would give.

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give communications directors would give to people who are looking to take the

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next step in their leadership careers.

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So I'm really pleased that you're here, Mary, because I've followed you from

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afar and I know our paths have crossed through the PRCA and CIPR before, but

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I'm always excited to see your updates, mostly on LinkedIn, because I happen

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To say at this point you are also the leader of a multi award winning team.

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Not that there's any FOMO or jealousy over here, but it's brilliant to have you here.

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So I wondered if you wouldn't mind by starting off, Mary, just telling

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us a little bit about your career to date and why you decided that

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communications was the profession for you.

Mary Whenman: 00:01:53

Okay.

Mary Whenman: 00:01:53

Thank you, Carrie-Ann.

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I think my career is really fallen into two parts.

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I've had an agency career and I've had an in house career, but how did

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I actually get into public relations and communications in the first place?

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I'm actually one of those rare people who took an active decision that they wanted

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to go into a career in public relations.

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I think when you talk to many people, they've fallen into

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it or found it along the way.

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I actually became very interested in advertising when I was a teenager and I

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really thought that I wanted to go into a career in advertising and through a family

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friend, I knew somebody who was working at Leo Burnett, and I went in to talk to

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him about what a career in advertising was like when I was about 16 years old.

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And I don't know how I worked this out, but I somehow.

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decided after that meeting that advertising actually wasn't for me,

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because I, he talked me through the different roles of the strategist,

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the creative and the account handler.

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And I thought I don't want to narrow myself into one of those.

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I want to be all of those things.

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And then I found public relations through the CIPR and realized that if you work

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in communications you can actually do a combination of all those things and that

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seemed a lot more interesting to me.

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So when I was in the sixth form I actually went along to a CIPR careers day

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which was entirely geared at graduates.

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I'm not quite sure how I got into the careers day at such

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a young age but spent the day.

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learning all about public relations.

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And I was doing a business studies A level at the time and I decided that I wanted to

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go and do a business studies degree and I wanted to go to a university that offered

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a sandwich course so that in your third year you could go and work for a year.

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And out of my degree course of 180 people, I was the only person at

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the time who went and found their placement year with a PR agency.

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And that's how my career in PR started because I was then

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fortunate enough after securing that placement to go back to them.

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Into a permanent role after I graduated.

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So that's how I got into the industry.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Brilliant.

Mary Whenman: 00:04:16

I feel like clearly lots of big aspirations, but also lots of clarity

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in terms of direction of travel, which as you say, might sound quite unusual

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to some of our listeners who may be a finding communications and a career in

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PR and comms through a different route.

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So I'm really, yeah, I'm really impressed at how much clarity you had at such a

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young age that's where you wanted to head.

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So that experience, going into the PR agency was what made you feel like.

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Then an entire career in comms was the right profession for you?

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Or did you wiggle off into different areas through your career?

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Have you stayed true to that comms path?

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No, I'm communications through and through.

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There's, a silver thread or a red thread going through me.

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That's all I've ever done.

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I was really lucky actually, because I started with a husband and wife

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team who ran a very small agency.

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And that was a fantastic training ground because it.

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taught me a number of things.

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It really taught me how a business is run.

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When you are, a very small team, you're very aware of the cash flow.

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And that is absolutely critical as anyone knows who, who sets up a small business.

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And also client service is absolutely critical because you're not going to

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get that cash flow if the client service and the delivery isn't impeccable.

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I was, I really learned that early on, and also one of the agency founders

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was a former journalist, and he's the one that really taught me how to write.

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So I think there's two critical skills you need in the early stages

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of your career that will then see you through writing and client service,

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whether it's in an agency or in house, and it's a stakeholder engagement.

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Though, that was the bedrock for that was established in that particular agency.

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And I worked for them for about two years after I graduated.

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And then I think having done three years with them by that point I

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needed to go and spread my wings.

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And spent a few months looking for a role in a much bigger agency

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where I could go and learn from new people and work on bigger brands.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that.

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And I'm sure we'll touch on this as the conversation continues, Mary, but you

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mentioned that move from agency to in house and the fact that you've got, that

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experience on both sides, as it were.

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I just wondered if you did want to just touch on kind of, How you made

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that decision to move from agency to in house and what that felt like for you.

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Yes I made that decision quite late in my career,

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actually and I'd been in agency for about 20 to 25 years at that point.

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I'd got to a senior role as a managing director of the corporate

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financial and public affairs practice working at Weber Shamwick.

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And Weber Shalman at the time was the second largest global agency.

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I was running a 60 person team with a 9 million P& L in terms of revenue.

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So it was a really big business unit.

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We were the second largest business unit in EMEA after the German office.

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And I was reporting to the EMEA CEO.

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So I think I was also one of the only female leaders of a corporate practice

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in London at the time and it's great to see that there have been other women

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come through over the, over recent years to start to lead corporate and

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financial practices, because they just tend to be more the world for men.

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I was there in what I thought would be my dream job.

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And actually it's always a case of be careful what you wish for, isn't it?

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Because it ended up that it wasn't my dream job.

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And when you get to that level and you're running a 9 million P& L,

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you're spending a huge amount of time with your finance business

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partner pouring over spreadsheets.

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And you're up financial reporting.

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You're also delivering a lot of new business.

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And you might occasionally be able to do some client work.

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So the balance was just not right for me.

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And I wanted to get back to doing a lot more client work.

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And actually doing.

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the profession that I actually was trained to do, but wasn't really

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doing anymore because essentially I, I had got to this senior leadership

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role when I wasn't doing the practice or the craft of communications.

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So that was really what drove me to wanting to move in house.

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And one might think it would have been easy being the MD of one of the largest

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corporate financial practices in London to do that, but it really wasn't.

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And it was a huge challenge.

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So I think my, First piece of advice to people would be if you do want

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to make that move from agency to in house, you need to think very

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carefully about the timing of that.

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And I would say go earlier in your career than later.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that.

Mary Whenman: 00:09:13

Thank you.

Mary Whenman: 00:09:14

I brilliant first piece of advice for this conversation.

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And I'm sure we'll come on to more shortly.

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And I will be asking you about even making that step up into a director

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kind of position, how that felt and how you knew that was right for you.

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But before we get to that, and I know we've We will come on to some challenges

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as well, but I'd be really keen to hear from you, Mary, about what you might

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consider some of the highlights of your comms career, and I'm sure there are

Mary Whenman: 00:09:40

absolutely loads, but if there are a couple that really stand out for you,

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it'd be brilliant to hear about them.

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It

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all of us have got clients or situations on our CV that we feel

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really propelled our career forward.

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I've got five of those.

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I won't go through all of them in detail or we won't get to the end of the podcast.

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But I think the first one was the launch of Orange, which was the first, the fourth

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mobile phone network to launch in the UK.

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And for All the youngsters out there, that's now what is known as ee.

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But orange was really revolutionary as a brand.

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And the orange launch, I would say, was equivalent in scale and media awareness

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as the launch of a new iPhone stay.

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And, I was working at Paragon Communications that is now an agency that

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doesn't exist anymore, but became Golan.

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And I was working there, it was a hundred person agency.

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We'd been appointed to Lord Chorringe about six years ago.

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Six weeks before launch and it was the best training ground on brand

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and also on integrated marketing communications, because we were working

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alongside the ad agency who was WCRS, we were working alongside the brand

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agency, which was more failings.

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And then there was, the direct marketing agency and multiple internal stakeholders.

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That was a fantastic grounding on how to work on a really big

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brand launch in an integrated way.

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When I left Paragon, I went through I went on to work at BIS Lancaster,

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that is now known as Euro RSCG.

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And there I worked on Butlins.

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And Butlins was one of my favourite pieces of business that I've

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ever worked on in my career.

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I Absolutely loved it.

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And it was at the time when Butlin's was going through a

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lot of challenges as a brand.

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They were appearing on the consumer affairs program watchdog

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on an almost weekly basis.

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They just lost a million pounds of bookings in one weekend due to

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a drug scandal that was splashed all over the Sunday Red Tops.

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We were brought in about a month after that.

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And I worked for the chief executive.

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There was a man called Tony Marshall.

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And Tony was one of those characters that you meet once or twice in your career.

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And he previously worked with Eric Morley on the Miss World contest.

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He was a hospitality and entertainment CEO through and through.

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He was from Leeds, and I remember in the pitch, He just turned to us and

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said who's doing the crisis management?

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Who's doing the sex drugs and alcohol?

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And I remember I shot back at him and I said, that would be me, but do you mean

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on a personal or professional basis?

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And my CEO shot me a death stare.

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And I wanted the room to, to just open up and swallow me and Tony,

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the CEO looked at me and he said, you are the woman for the job.

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You're hired.

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Still obviously had a stern talking to in the taxi after the

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pitch from my agency boss was very pleased that we won the account.

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I still can't believe I said that, and

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Carrie-Ann Wade: was a lesson in, yeah, a lesson in reading

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the room though and knowing

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I obviously for some way clicked with him and then I worked three.

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Went around the country and did three years of crisis management and brand

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protection and brand building for Butlin's and it was probably the most fun piece of

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business that I've worked on in my career.

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There are other clients that I've worked on.

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I then went from Butlin's.

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to the other extreme and worked on to beers the diamond mining company.

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And that was fascinating because that was really where I came in touch with

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management consultants for the first time and the beers at the time had been the

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management consultancy and they needed to completely change their business strategy.

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So we worked alongside Bain.

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I was working at Hill Knowlton at the time.

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And we did a huge global strategy change for De Beers.

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And the role that Hill Knowlton fulfilled, and I was a core member

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of the team, was delivering all the communications for that global strategy

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change, both internally and externally.

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And of course, the whole diamond industry, which is probably one of the most

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complex industries I've ever worked with.

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So I think those are some of my highlights in the sort of first part of my career.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Brilliant.

Mary Whenman: 00:14:27

I love them.

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It's from holiday camps to high end diamonds and everything in between,

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it sounds like so brilliant and some great lessons in reading the

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room and knowing your audience.

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So even though you've got that stern talking to, I'm talking to and clearly at

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work say, well done you, that's brilliant.

Mary Whenman: 00:14:43

Thank you.

Mary Whenman: 00:14:44

I guess I'd like to move us on and I could hear about your highlights for the rest of

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the podcast, but I know our listeners will want me to ask some more questions of you.

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But I guess I was interested to understand Mary.

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How did you decide that taking that step up to become a director and work

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at a director level in your comms career was the right choice for you?

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I think I'm quite an ambitious person.

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And so it was it's always been something for me that I always

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want to move up to the next level.

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And so it just felt like a natural progression.

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When I was going through my agency career and, I think the first really

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big milestone in your agency career is to get to account director.

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That really is the golden ticket, isn't it?

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And you feel you're on your way.

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And then from there, you're moving up to associate director.

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And I got my directorship in agency when I was at Hill Knowlton.

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And going onto the board and I remember my chair sitting down with me and giving

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me a whole induction around what it meant and my fiduciary responsibilities.

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And it felt like a really big moment for me.

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And I think once I got to that level.

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It was ensuring that I stayed at that level and I was able to maintain being a

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director and then moving to in my, my next role as a director and consolidating that.

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And then I think I definitely knew that I wanted to become an MD but the

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challenge I had at the time was when I was a director in agency that's

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when I my husband and I chose to have our family and we had three children.

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So during that period, I actually worked as an interim because I

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knew that I couldn't and didn't want to work five days a week.

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So I chose to work three days a week for six years, but I set myself up as

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an interim doing sort of senior level assignments largely for former clients

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or people I knew in the industry.

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And I was continuously employed in that period, working on projects

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that would last anywhere between three and sort of 12 months.

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And so it was when I got to the point at which I knew I wanted

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to go back into a permanent role.

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That's when I was able to step up to managing director in an agency.

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And at that point I had three directors reporting to me.

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And that was I think.

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The key thing is what is the difference between an MD and I think as the MD

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you've got to have that, a far broader outlook and, the buck really does stop

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with you in an agency environment.

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In terms of being a director in in house role.

Mary Whenman: 00:17:37

I think it, what Director of Communications means in different size

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organizations can be quite different.

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So I think if you were in a FTSE 100 and you're a Director of Communications, you

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actually might be working in a single line business unit with a group corporate

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affairs director to whom you report.

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In my organization, which is a medium sized organization as director of

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communications, I'm working right across the entire group across internal

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communications, external communications, and then you get involved in so many

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things that you never imagined that communications director gets involved in.

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And then at the other end you could be a startup business of five people

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and it's really important to look bigger than you are, and you need to

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hire a director of communications.

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So it means different things, I think, in different sized organizations.

Mary Whenman: 00:18:35

But for me I always wanted that sort of achievement that came with it.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that.

Mary Whenman: 00:18:41

I think that's a really good point for listeners to consider if they're

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thinking about moving up in their communications career to that next level.

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That point about actually what does being a director of communications

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mean will be different depending on maybe the sector or like you say, the

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size of organization that you're in.

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So definitely something for people to think about as they're

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making choices about which step they take next in their career.

Mary Whenman: 00:19:07

I think so a great point made there, Mary.

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If you're an aspiring communications leader who's looking for a safe space to

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Mary Whenman: 00:19:17

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Mary Whenman: 00:19:22

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Mary Whenman: 00:19:24

You can find out more at cats-pajamas.co.Uk or over on our socials.

Mary Whenman: 00:19:30

All the links are in the show notes.

Mary Whenman: 00:19:33

You touched on earlier a little bit, you started to talk about

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challenges within your career.

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So I wondered if you could share with us what you feel like your biggest challenge

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has been as a communications director.

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So once you've made that step up into directorship, what do

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you feel has been maybe one of your biggest challenges there?

Mary Whenman: 00:19:53

I think one of the biggest challenges for any communications

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director is speaking truth to power and knowing how you need to deliver

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that and when you need to deliver that.

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There's a former communications director who some listeners might know, a guy

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called Mike Love and Mike has held many senior roles in his career and he's

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now retired, but I always remember.

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listening to him at a conference or reading something he'd written and he gave

Mary Whenman: 00:20:26

a very good and pertinent piece of advice.

Mary Whenman: 00:20:30

And he said if you work in agency and give a client some bad advice,

Mary Whenman: 00:20:34

there aren't any real consequences.

Mary Whenman: 00:20:36

But if you work in house, there are.

Mary Whenman: 00:20:38

you could lose your job.

Mary Whenman: 00:20:40

And I remember in my very first in house role in the first difficult

Mary Whenman: 00:20:44

situation I was having to deal with, thinking of that piece, not really

Mary Whenman: 00:20:50

advice, just a statement, isn't it?

Mary Whenman: 00:20:52

And that was resonating in my head.

Mary Whenman: 00:20:54

And I think when you work in house, if you're in a particularly small team and

Mary Whenman: 00:20:59

you might There might not be any other communications professionals around you,

Mary Whenman: 00:21:03

other than the team reporting to you.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:06

It can feel a very lonely and isolating place.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:10

Fortunately, the role I'm in now, whilst I am, the most senior person in

Mary Whenman: 00:21:17

communications working across the whole group, I know that there are plenty of

Mary Whenman: 00:21:22

people internally I can go to if I want a second opinion or a sounding board.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:28

And also it's really important to establish those relationships with

Mary Whenman: 00:21:32

your external agency so that you can check in with them when you're ready.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:36

difficult or challenging situation.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:39

But I think without doubt the most challenging professional period

Mary Whenman: 00:21:43

for me and also for my team was the pandemic as it probably was

Mary Whenman: 00:21:48

for many communications directors.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:50

Just a bit of background, the British Business Bank is the

Mary Whenman: 00:21:53

UK's economic development bank.

Mary Whenman: 00:21:55

And so when the pandemic happened, we were called in by government to

Mary Whenman: 00:22:01

deliver the government's response.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:03

to support small businesses through the pandemic.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:06

And what that meant was that on the 11th of March in 2020, the Chancellor

Mary Whenman: 00:22:11

stood up in Parliament and announced a business support programme that was

Mary Whenman: 00:22:16

going to be delivered to small businesses that would launch 12 the 23rd of March.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:23

It was the bank who was having to deliver that.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:26

And it was my team who were having to do a whole product launch to get millions

Mary Whenman: 00:22:31

of pounds of funding out into the market for small businesses in 12 days flat.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:36

Now obviously we were part of a team of a few hundred people doing this.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:41

And we launched that scheme.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:44

And we, it sounds very naive now.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:46

That's really what we thought we were doing.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:48

We were just launching a scheme.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:49

And everyone would think this is marvellous and aren't we wonderful,

Mary Whenman: 00:22:52

saving all these small businesses.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:54

But literally within days, the scheme started to receive

Mary Whenman: 00:22:57

criticism from the media.

Mary Whenman: 00:22:59

And then we were asked to launch another programme.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:03

And we launched another program a few weeks later and then we were asked

Mary Whenman: 00:23:06

to launch something called the Bounce Back Loan Scheme, which I'm sure most

Mary Whenman: 00:23:10

people listening to this have heard of and it's received a lot of media

Mary Whenman: 00:23:13

attention and public scrutiny since it was launched four years ago now.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:19

And finally we launched something called the Future Fund in the May,

Mary Whenman: 00:23:23

so in the space of eight weeks.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:26

The bank had launched four huge business support programs.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:32

So we were all working 24 hours a day, seven days a week to get all of this

Mary Whenman: 00:23:38

up and out into the market, but then also dealing with a very intense level.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:44

Of public scrutiny, media scrutiny scrutiny from parliamentarians.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:49

And that actually went on for about two years.

Mary Whenman: 00:23:53

We were in, in that state and we went through numerous select committees

Mary Whenman: 00:23:57

National Audit Office reports were written about these different programs.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:02

And so to be in the middle of that for a two year period was very intense.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:06

And it was one Christmas I was reflecting and I was re I read a

Mary Whenman: 00:24:11

blog by an Australian firefighter who is a specialist in something

Mary Whenman: 00:24:16

called long term incident management and the impact that has on teens.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:20

And I read it and I thought, my goodness, This is the situation we are in.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:23

And I then contacted Amanda Coleman from the industry, who many listeners

Mary Whenman: 00:24:29

will have heard of, who's worked in high profile incidents, and is now a trainer.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:36

And I said, I need you to come in and help my team because we need to

Mary Whenman: 00:24:39

get ourselves out of this situation and out of this permanent state of

Mary Whenman: 00:24:46

operating in a crisis environment.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:48

We need to get back to operating in business as usual.

Mary Whenman: 00:24:52

And so she, she ran some sessions with us and it was absolutely what

Mary Whenman: 00:24:58

we needed and that really enabled us.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:01

to get out of that state that we've been in for two years and

Mary Whenman: 00:25:04

to go back to business as usual.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:07

Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:08

And as you're talking about the pandemic, it's given me flashbacks as to what it

Mary Whenman: 00:25:12

was like in my own communications team at the time, but we definitely weren't

Mary Whenman: 00:25:16

launching four major programs like that in, in the space of eight weeks.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:21

I guess there are a couple of things I just wanted to touch on that you said.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:24

And one, you talked there a bit about resilience and kind of the

Mary Whenman: 00:25:28

impact on teams, but I guess.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:30

I was interested to hear from you about, your thoughts as a communications

Mary Whenman: 00:25:35

director about how you manage your own wellbeing and where you seek support.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:40

And you talked about how relationships are key to that support, when

Mary Whenman: 00:25:44

you're working at that really senior level as a leader and you are.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:48

day in day out, maybe facing that public scrutiny or dealing with lots of media.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:52

I was just interested to know how you look after yourself as a comms director.

Mary Whenman: 00:25:57

I don't think I'm particularly good at looking after myself.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:03

I think my father ran his own business.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:06

Looking back on my childhood, my father was an absolute workaholic and

Mary Whenman: 00:26:10

he worked six days a week and we, I'd occasionally see him on a Sunday even

Mary Whenman: 00:26:14

though we lived in the same house.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:16

And I've definitely got that trait.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:17

I am a, bit of a workaholic.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:20

And I will do whatever the situation demands of me.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:24

But I think the reason we got through it is we're a very strong team.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:30

We all supported one another.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:32

And also everybody within the bank.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:35

because we were all collectively in this situation, whether you

Mary Whenman: 00:26:39

worked in an investment team or the legal team or you were in one

Mary Whenman: 00:26:43

of the product teams, we were all collectively in this situation together.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:48

So everybody was naturally supportive of one another.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:52

Although we were working very long hours.

Mary Whenman: 00:26:57

It was important to understand when people needed a break.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:00

So in the sort of that first six month period that was incredibly intense,

Mary Whenman: 00:27:05

people did have to work through weekends.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:08

I remember taking, I think, two days off over the Easter weekend and thinking

Mary Whenman: 00:27:13

it was the most fantastic thing.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:15

And then, when it came to the sort of the Maybank holidays,

Mary Whenman: 00:27:18

other team members got to work.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:19

took that time off.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:21

So we weren't unfortunately a large enough team at the time to operate

Mary Whenman: 00:27:26

a rotor system, which I know a lot of, large in house teams and

Mary Whenman: 00:27:29

government departments are able to do.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:32

We just didn't have the luxury of that.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:34

I was able to bring in some additional interim support which was really helpful.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:40

And I think key is also You know, we were all in the middle

Mary Whenman: 00:27:45

of the pandemic at the time.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:47

And I think key for me was, making sure that I did focus on my children

Mary Whenman: 00:27:52

and my family and that really helped.

Mary Whenman: 00:27:54

But I think that I was very fortunate because that was a very different

Mary Whenman: 00:27:58

situation to a lot of the members of my team were either living on their own in a

Mary Whenman: 00:28:03

flat or they were living in a house share.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:06

And it might've been that some of their You know, the housemates were

Mary Whenman: 00:28:10

for loads and they were the only one working and that was very challenging.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:14

So it was ensuring that people could take the time out for the things they wanted.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:18

One member of my team it was really important to her that she

Mary Whenman: 00:28:21

was able to go and play tennis.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:23

In a socially distance way, obviously, and do online yoga.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:26

And she'd just say I need to go to my online yoga class now.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:30

And so it was respecting people's the way people needed to decompress and relax.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:37

And that was really important.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:39

I think I'm personally not particularly good , as I said at finding the downtime.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:45

But I think.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:46

It is ensuring that everyone does get that downtime that they need in the

Mary Whenman: 00:28:50

way in which they personally need it, which is different for every person.

Mary Whenman: 00:28:55

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, I think that's really helpful, isn't it?

Mary Whenman: 00:28:57

To consider what a person needs to help their wellbeing and to support them

Mary Whenman: 00:29:01

at challenging times in the workplace.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:04

And like you say, that's not going to be the same for everybody.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:06

So I think you've done a brilliant job in managing your

Mary Whenman: 00:29:09

way through that with your team.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:10

So thanks for sharing.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:12

On the flip side of the biggest challenge you've talked it.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:15

about a few of your highlights from your agency career already.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:19

I wondered if you would like to talk about what you might consider to be your biggest

Mary Whenman: 00:29:23

success as a communications director, if there is one that springs to mind,

Mary Whenman: 00:29:28

or it might be, I don't know, something in terms of the way that you've worked

Mary Whenman: 00:29:31

as a comms director through your career.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:34

I think probably the work I've done at the bank, I would

Mary Whenman: 00:29:38

like to say is my biggest success.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:40

When I joined the bank, the communications team was a team of four.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:45

And pretty much everything was done off the side of a desk.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:49

And I've, built a far bigger team.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:51

I've established the internal communications function from scratch.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:55

I've established the social media capability from scratch.

Mary Whenman: 00:29:58

And also I think, Before the pandemic, the communications team was probably

Mary Whenman: 00:30:05

considered the good news department.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:08

And once we'd launched the first of the business support programs in the pandemic

Mary Whenman: 00:30:14

and started to track the media coverage immediately the day, the following

Mary Whenman: 00:30:19

day, we have a seat at the table.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:22

And what I went about doing was demonstrating the strategic importance

Mary Whenman: 00:30:28

of communications, particularly in management decision making.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:32

And we had some criticism around some operational issues.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:36

And so I was ensuring that in the daily media report.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:41

That was all included, this, and also including who are the stakeholders

Mary Whenman: 00:30:46

who are commenting on that because you, that's, it's a fantastic way

Mary Whenman: 00:30:49

to do your stakeholder mapping.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:51

And it became a daily agenda item on the standard every morning.

Mary Whenman: 00:30:58

giving an update on that and that really established the function

Mary Whenman: 00:31:03

as a strategic capability.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:05

And as a result I and my team, we now manage also, the chief executives.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:12

Media engagement and profile and the chairs media engagement profile

Mary Whenman: 00:31:17

that wasn't happening when I first joined the bank six years ago.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:22

So I think that's probably the biggest success in terms of, if I

Mary Whenman: 00:31:27

were to leave tomorrow what have you left behind and I've left behind, a

Mary Whenman: 00:31:31

well respected team that is in the meeting room when decisions are made.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:37

I'd also look back and say I'm very proud of the work that we did with De Beers.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:42

I've it was a real moment for that organization and to be involved in

Mary Whenman: 00:31:48

the change of strategy for a business that is the global market leader.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:54

means you're actually changing an entire industry.

Mary Whenman: 00:31:59

And I think once you've worked on a project like that, not a lot phases you

Mary Whenman: 00:32:03

after that, when you're presented with a substantial project to deliver for

Mary Whenman: 00:32:10

either your own company or a client.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:12

Carrie-Ann Wade: Brilliant.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:13

And I'm hearing lots in there about as well as that importance of your

Mary Whenman: 00:32:17

role in helping to position the function as a strategic function.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:21

There's something about how you're demonstrating the value add from

Mary Whenman: 00:32:24

communications at that strategic level.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:27

And I think it's something that lots of communicators talk about in different

Mary Whenman: 00:32:30

spaces around how important that sort of evaluation and demonstrating

Mary Whenman: 00:32:34

the impact that you're having is.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:36

So I think some real life examples from you about why that's important

Mary Whenman: 00:32:40

in terms of supporting the function and yourself as a comms director.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:44

So the final bit that I wanted to talk about with you Mary is probably the reason

Mary Whenman: 00:32:50

why a lot of our listeners are here.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:53

So now we've got the context about all of your amazing

Mary Whenman: 00:32:56

experience in your career to date.

Mary Whenman: 00:32:59

I really wanted to ask you what advice you might give to aspiring

Mary Whenman: 00:33:04

communications directors and leaders.

Mary Whenman: 00:33:06

So I work a lot with people who are just thinking about whether they

Mary Whenman: 00:33:10

want to take that next step and step up into that leadership space, or

Mary Whenman: 00:33:14

they've maybe been comms point of view and are now on wondering whether

Mary Whenman: 00:33:19

or not to make that break for it and go for a director level role.

Mary Whenman: 00:33:24

I would be interested to hear from you, Mary, based on your own experience, what

Mary Whenman: 00:33:27

advice you might give to those listeners.

Mary Whenman: 00:33:31

Okay, thank you.

Mary Whenman: 00:33:32

I think one benefit that your listeners have that probably wasn't there,

Mary Whenman: 00:33:38

or I certainly wasn't cognizant of earlier in my career, is I think

Mary Whenman: 00:33:43

there's far more focus now on actually proactively managing your career.

Mary Whenman: 00:33:48

And although people might think having listened to this podcast and

Mary Whenman: 00:33:53

might look at my LinkedIn and think that's a very well managed career.

Mary Whenman: 00:33:57

I would say most of my job moves were not accidental, but they weren't that planned.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:03

It was just like, Oh, I like the look of that.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:05

I'll go and do that.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:07

Whereas I think nowadays people are far more strategic and thoughtful.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:10

Thoughtful and they plan their careers.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:14

And I really didn't do that.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:16

And so I think the fact that people are thinking about that and planning

Mary Whenman: 00:34:20

their careers is a real step forward.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:23

I think I touched on it earlier, I think if you do want to move from

Mary Whenman: 00:34:27

agency to in-house or you do want to move in an in-house role up.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:31

to a director level or a head of level.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:34

I think it's all about timing and working out when the timing is right

Mary Whenman: 00:34:39

for you and when you are ready to take on that extra responsibility.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:44

I got some very good advice.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:46

from the CEO of the second agency I worked in and she she was a female

Mary Whenman: 00:34:51

chief executive, which was quite rare at the time and very successful.

Mary Whenman: 00:34:55

And she said always act and behave for the job you want to

Mary Whenman: 00:35:00

do, not the job you are doing.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:01

So it's always being that step ahead.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:03

So if you do want to take that step up.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:07

It's starting to look at the people in the level above you.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:10

How do they behave?

Mary Whenman: 00:35:12

What sort of projects are they taking on?

Mary Whenman: 00:35:14

Wait, where you can really demonstrate your value.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:18

And I think there's a number of traits people need.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:21

And then a really good communicator brings the outside world in.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:26

And you need to be read might sound like a a slightly old fashioned expression,

Mary Whenman: 00:35:31

but what I mean is you need to be across all your social media news feeds,

Mary Whenman: 00:35:35

really understand what's going on.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:37

You need to be listening to the right news commentators.

Mary Whenman: 00:35:42

I'm obviously talking here, if you work in the world of corporate communications,

Mary Whenman: 00:35:45

if you work in brand communications, you'll be listening to influencers

Mary Whenman: 00:35:49

and different people, but the people within the orbit in which you work

Mary Whenman: 00:35:54

in, you need to be absolutely sucking that information in so that when

Mary Whenman: 00:35:58

you're in meetings with senior people.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:01

You can use these anecdotes.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:03

You can say, oh I, I read in the Financial Times, or I was just in the Today program

Mary Whenman: 00:36:07

this morning, they make this really relevant point that it's important to our

Mary Whenman: 00:36:10

organization, or there's new trend data that's coming out from different polling

Mary Whenman: 00:36:16

organizations or research organizations.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:20

So it's really being that outside in and having that very big

Mary Whenman: 00:36:24

picture view that is really valued.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:26

It's also ensuring that you're talking the language of the C suite.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:33

So although I went into a career in public relations when I was 21 years

Mary Whenman: 00:36:39

old, I don't consider myself as having a career in public relations now.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:45

I work in communications and I've ensured that I've established myself as a

Mary Whenman: 00:36:49

strategic communicator as, and my function as a strategic communications function.

Mary Whenman: 00:36:55

And so I talk in the language of the board, which is about reputational

Mary Whenman: 00:37:00

risk, reputation management.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:02

And that's really important.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:04

If you want to be considered for a senior role, you need to talk the language You

Mary Whenman: 00:37:09

also need to understand the basics like what's the difference between a mission,

Mary Whenman: 00:37:13

a vision, values and objectives and what's the difference between a business

Mary Whenman: 00:37:18

objective and a strategic objective.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:20

Because this will become your everyday common parlance when

Mary Whenman: 00:37:25

you get into a senior role.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:27

I think it's also a final bit of advice.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:30

So I could go on forever with advice is, it's being that

Mary Whenman: 00:37:35

person that gets things done.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:37

It's the whole Barack Obama approach, isn't it?

Mary Whenman: 00:37:39

Be that person who gets stuff done.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:42

Say yes, take on that project and deliver the project without having to be chased.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:47

Go and ask your line manager for support and questions when you need it.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:51

But if you then build a reputation for being that trustworthy

Mary Whenman: 00:37:55

person that can get stuff done, you'll get given more projects.

Mary Whenman: 00:37:59

And those projects will become high profile projects within your organization.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:04

And that's the sort of thing that leads to promotions and for you to

Mary Whenman: 00:38:07

be considered for a leadership role.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:10

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love it.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:10

Some real nuggets in there, Mary, for our listeners in terms of how they might want

Mary Whenman: 00:38:15

to start thinking, how they might want to.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:17

start operating.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:18

And I would definitely say for listeners who for some of this is resonated, but

Mary Whenman: 00:38:22

maybe feels a bit scary, especially that step up into the C suite, which

Mary Whenman: 00:38:26

like you say, is a whole new language sometimes for you to learn that there

Mary Whenman: 00:38:30

will definitely be opportunities for people to maybe shadow others that

Mary Whenman: 00:38:34

are already in that space or seek some mentoring from people who've already.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:39

walked the walk so that they can really get used to speak in that language and

Mary Whenman: 00:38:43

having those types of conversations.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:45

So I think some really brilliant advice in there, Mary.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:48

Thank you so much.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:50

I'm really grateful that you've been on the podcast today

Mary Whenman: 00:38:53

sharing a bit more about you.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:54

And I feel like I've learned lots about your career to date.

Mary Whenman: 00:38:58

And I'm excited to see maybe what happens next.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:00

Because you're always, your team's always there winning awards or leading the way.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:04

So it feels like you're doing plenty of trailblazing for the profession.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:08

So thank you so much for that, Mary.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:10

And I've really appreciated talking to you today.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:13

Thank you on behalf of the listeners.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:15

Thank you so much, Carrie-Ann.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:17

It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:21

Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:24

I'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Mary Whenman: 00:39:27

and leave a rating or a review.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:30

You can also engage with me over on the socials.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:32

I'm on Insta and X at @catspjs_uk of course you can find me over on LinkedIn.

Mary Whenman: 00:39:39

Hope to catch up with you soon.