S2E8 Behind the Bob - the one with me (Carrie-Ann Wade)
In this episode, Carrie-Ann Wade shares the highlights, challenges and insights from her communications career to date and her life as a communications director.
From careers advice at school to the importance of her support network, she shares her journey so far. Opportunity is the word of the episode - grabbing the ones that feel right as they come along and looking to help others find the right opportunities for them.
Carrie-Ann has worked in communications for almost 20 years and is currently founder and director of Cat's Pajamas Communications Ltd, mentoring aspiring comms leaders and supporting team development. In this, the last episode in the series, she shares her advice for other communicators alongside some of the learning she has gained from life as a leader so far.
Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director
Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with Carrie-Ann Wade.
This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career. You’ll hear from Carrie-Ann about her own personal experiences and insights and there might even be a special guest or two popping up.
The first series focused on diversity in the communications profession and how to create more opportunities for people to see communications as a profession they would like to work in. The second series explores the lives of communications directors to help inspire and support communications leaders of the future.
Behind the Bob gives you a sneak peek into life as a comms director and provides you with all the "behind the scenes" knowledge to help you thrive as a communications leader.
Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed listening please share it, leave a rating or a review. It really does help the podcast reach more communicators!
New episodes of Behind the Bob are published on Wednesdays and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.
You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk
Transcript
Carrie-Ann Wade: Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with
Speaker:me, Carrie-Ann Wade.
Speaker:This
Speaker:Carrie-Ann Wade: podcast is all about developing communications leaders
Speaker:of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.
Speaker:You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even
Speaker:be a special guest or two popping up.
Speaker:So I hope you enjoy.
Speaker:Hello listeners, I'm not sure how this has happened but we've managed to reach
Speaker:the last episode in this, the second series of Behind the Bob Diary of a Comms
Speaker:Director already, and if you've been listening along you will know that I've
Speaker:been talking to some absolutely amazing and inspirational communications directors
Speaker:from across a range of different sectors.
Speaker:who've all had different journeys into the profession as communicators and different
Speaker:paths to becoming communications directors at various points in their careers.
Speaker:And I've Absolutely loved having those conversations this episode
Speaker:as it's the last one in the series will be a little bit different
Speaker:because it's just going to be me.
Speaker:I'm not interviewing anybody.
Speaker:So apologies to those of you who might be feeling a bit disappointed that there
Speaker:isn't a special guest for this episode.
Speaker:but.
Speaker:But I did think to myself it wouldn't really be right or fair to ask all of
Speaker:those other brilliant communicators questions and be super nosy about their
Speaker:career, about some of the highlights, some of the challenges, without being
Speaker:prepared to answer those questions myself.
Speaker:So while, I guess it might seem a little bit self indulgent for
Speaker:this episode to be all about me.
Speaker:And, That's exactly what it's going to be about the diary of the comms
Speaker:director was about me and others being able to give real insight and share our
Speaker:experiences to be able to help aspiring communications leaders and people.
Speaker:Anywhere in their career from a communications point of view.
Speaker:So it felt only right and proper that I shared with you just a few
Speaker:insights about my career to date.
Speaker:So that's what I'm going to do.
Speaker:And I will I'll start I guess by telling you a little bit about my career to
Speaker:date and why I decided comms was the profession for me, although I'm not
Speaker:sure if I decided it or if it chose me.
Speaker:Maybe you can help me work that out by the end of the episode when we've when
Speaker:we've finished having this conversation.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:I guess first and foremost for me, I love people.
Speaker:I love working out what makes people tick and I love supporting people to grow,
Speaker:to thrive, to be able to have a voice sometimes when maybe it's more difficult
Speaker:for people to be able to do that.
Speaker:So that has really been the driver in the golden thread.
Speaker:Throughout a lot of my career choices and the opportunities that I've chosen
Speaker:to take in my career, I know that you thought I was going to say I love talking
Speaker:and that's why I chose communications, but actually I love listening.
Speaker:I'm a very curious, I mentioned the word nosy, didn't I, before,
Speaker:but a very curious person.
Speaker:I'm really interested in people's stories, where they've come from,
Speaker:where they want to go to in the future.
Speaker:So for me, communications as a career choice feels like that's been an amazing
Speaker:opportunity to get to hear some of those stories and share some of those stories,
Speaker:and on occasion be part of some of those stories, which has been just brilliant.
Speaker:If I I think right back to being at secondary school I don't know if anyone
Speaker:else listening had this experience, but there was a multiple choice questionnaire
Speaker:that I was asked to complete at some point, probably when I was 16,
Speaker:maybe as part of the careers advice support that we were given at school.
Speaker:And I remember doing that in the stable block at Wheatley Park, if anybody
Speaker:listening an old school friend of mine.
Speaker:And then however long later, receiving feedback about what that questionnaire
Speaker:said about my potential career choices and it came back as a kind of report that
Speaker:somebody would talk through with you, the careers advisor listing out potential
Speaker:jobs that might be of interest to you.
Speaker:And I have to say job number one.
Speaker:director.
Speaker:That isn't a direction that I've ever decided to go in in my career.
Speaker:But funnily enough, I guess there are some similarities with some
Speaker:of the work and some of the skills that I like to think that I've got
Speaker:now in terms of being a director.
Speaker:Being a good listener, demonstrating compassion, being
Speaker:there for people showing empathy.
Speaker:So maybe that wasn't too far out there in terms of a potential career
Speaker:path for me, but number two on that list was marketing executive.
Speaker:So, well, I haven't 100 percent committed myself to marketing as a profession.
Speaker:Some elements of marketing have been there throughout my communications
Speaker:career, so maybe some of the careers advice was helpful and aligned to
Speaker:my personality type and my skill set and more importantly, my values.
Speaker:I didn't actually go into university.
Speaker:After I did my A Levels, I went straight into the workplace for various different
Speaker:reasons, partly because I couldn't really make up my mind what I wanted to do.
Speaker:I had in my head at some point that I maybe wanted to get into
Speaker:journalism, perhaps be a travel photographer, do something in
Speaker:fashion but I wasn't really sure and I didn't want to go to university.
Speaker:and kind of put myself in a box that maybe didn't feel quite right for me and then,
Speaker:and then have to leave or, or move on.
Speaker:I went straight into the workplace after I did my A levels and I went
Speaker:to work in a market research company.
Speaker:I then moved into sales and business development in the private sector and had
Speaker:quite a lot of opportunities actually to progress and try new roles out, joining
Speaker:various different projects and programs of work and again, meeting a few people that
Speaker:are still very important in my life who I still have friendships with now which
Speaker:I feel very blessed and lucky to have.
Speaker:I think there was something when I worked in the private sector, though, about
Speaker:not necessarily feeling that fulfilled.
Speaker:So while the work was really interesting and there was loads of brilliant
Speaker:opportunities when I worked for Nestle, , which probably couldn't
Speaker:be further away from working in the NHS and the public sector, could it?
Speaker:But lots of brilliant opportunities to travel, to learn from some amazing people
Speaker:from across the globe about different ways of working, different styles how
Speaker:people were showing up in the workplace.
Speaker:And I feel like I was offered lots of opportunities, but I also
Speaker:said yes to lots of opportunities.
Speaker:And I was fairly young at the time and probably a bit fearless and thought,
Speaker:you know, what's going to happen?
Speaker:Let's just say yes and see where some of this goes.
Speaker:I was very much in the private sector in the early part of my career.
Speaker:And I think my work ethic and my integrity you know, was showing up even then.
Speaker:But I also think for me it felt like I was working very long hours I was able
Speaker:to have some fun but it got to the point where it felt like it was all work and
Speaker:no play but actually I wasn't really sure what impact I was really having
Speaker:more broadly and it felt like I didn't, I wouldn't have described it as this then
Speaker:I think it's more on reflection but it felt like I wasn't really Being of service
Speaker:to anybody working in the private sector and in that organization at the time.
Speaker:So I couldn't really get a sense of where I was adding value and delivering purpose
Speaker:in a way that felt meaningful for me.
Speaker:I had the bright idea that working in the NHS might be where I got
Speaker:that purpose and meaning from.
Speaker:I started out my NHS career in a patient and public involvement
Speaker:role that was fixed term in a specialist learning disability trust.
Speaker:And it was a bit of a brave decision to make taking on a fixed term
Speaker:role from permanent employment.
Speaker:But it felt like the right thing for me to do at the time.
Speaker:And that was 20 years or so ago now.
Speaker:And I've spent the rest of my NHS career, up to the point in which I left
Speaker:a few months back really just taking on different opportunities moving
Speaker:into more senior roles, and really just grasping what's been thrown at
Speaker:me and offered to me along the way.
Speaker:So the thing that you I have really loved about working in communications and of
Speaker:course still do love is the variety.
Speaker:No two days are ever the same when you're working in a communications
Speaker:role, regardless of what role that is.
Speaker:I've also loved the energy and the creativity of the NHS on
Speaker:the professionals that I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by.
Speaker:And also the impact that really good communications
Speaker:can have for an organization.
Speaker:And when you work public sector, somewhere like the NHS, that impact does really For
Speaker:me or at least it has for me, felt greater because you feel like you are really able
Speaker:to have an impact for the colleagues that are around you and the delivery of care
Speaker:to patients and, and your communities.
Speaker:So that's just a little whistle stop tour, I guess, of my career to date.
Speaker:I don't think I decided that communications was the profession for me.
Speaker:I think that jumped from more of a marketing and sales background in the
Speaker:private sector into communications in the public sector, probably wasn't
Speaker:that huge to be honest with you.
Speaker:There's lots of transferable skills and experience there.
Speaker:But for me, once I'd got a taste of working in, in communications, it felt
Speaker:like a natural place for me to be.
Speaker:And yeah, that, that's kind of how it happened for me.
Speaker:I know I ask guests this all the time and it's a bit strange to be talking about
Speaker:my own highlights there have been many highlights throughout my career and it was
Speaker:really hard when I was trying to reflect on how to talk about some of these
Speaker:and, and which ones felt right to me.
Speaker:More of a highlight than others.
Speaker:So there's not a particular order to this.
Speaker:It's, it's just how it's come to mind, but I've absolutely loved
Speaker:working in the mental health space.
Speaker:And it's an area that's really important to me in terms of, of
Speaker:having some personal experience within my family of mental health.
Speaker:And also just feeling like it's such a huge part of who we all are,
Speaker:our mental health and wellbeing, you know, is, is really important.
Speaker:It can't be unlinked from anything else in our lives, it's so integral to who we
Speaker:are and how we show up and how we feel.
Speaker:Yet actually, even now, with all of the amazing work that's gone on over the years
Speaker:to talk more openly about mental health.
Speaker:It still feels like one of the Cinderella services when it comes
Speaker:to the public sector and NHS.
Speaker:And when it comes to how well we as a society support mental health as being
Speaker:something that, you We should all be able to talk about openly and we should all be
Speaker:able to ask for help with so It's always resonated with me So I have to say having
Speaker:been involved in a number of mental health stigma campaigns Throughout my career has
Speaker:been an absolute highlight for me When I worked for oxford health The Stamp Out
Speaker:Stigma campaign was just such a brilliant example of co production with people with
Speaker:lived experience really wanting to have a strong voice and create an impact with
Speaker:the campaign that they wanted to develop.
Speaker:And it was my first experience actually of working with an agency to support that.
Speaker:So that was a really great highlight for me very early on in my NHS comms career.
Speaker:And one That wasn't easy, it became a highlight, but at the start it was
Speaker:very challenging having to talk senior people in the organization into taking
Speaker:some risks with that campaign, because it was quite hard hitting and it was
Speaker:quite shocking, but that was the point of it and it was totally a challenge.
Speaker:Backed by what our service users wanted from us at the time.
Speaker:And that was shortlisted for a number of national awards.
Speaker:So brilliant to be the first kind of big campaign that I'd worked on
Speaker:to get that level of recognition.
Speaker:And since then have worked on and supported various other mental health
Speaker:related campaigns, particularly in that stigma space working with people with
Speaker:lived experience, which has just been a humbling and also eye opening way of
Speaker:working actually to really truly try to put yourself in someone else's shoes
Speaker:and hear directly from them you know, what living with various different
Speaker:mental health issues has, has really meant for them and being able to,
Speaker:in some small way, help them to have a voice that perhaps they sometimes
Speaker:feel like they're unable to have.
Speaker:So stigma campaigns in relation to mental health have definitely
Speaker:been a highlight of my career at various different points, actually.
Speaker:One of the other highlights for me, and people have probably
Speaker:heard me talk about this before.
Speaker:Chairing the NHS providers National Comms Leads Network was definitely
Speaker:a highlight for me because it pushed me completely out of my comfort zone.
Speaker:And I know people may not believe this because they've perhaps seen me
Speaker:in action over on the, , how to take the lead podcast with Lee or seen, me
Speaker:on my socials and know that I have extroverted preferences but actually
Speaker:taking the lead in, Something at that level did feel quite scary but felt like
Speaker:something that was a really good challenge and opportunity at the same time.
Speaker:So stepping into that space and putting myself forward and then being supported
Speaker:by my peers which was a really critical part of being able to be in that role and
Speaker:feel like I was having a positive impact for people Yeah, it was definitely a step
Speaker:outside of my comfort zone, but something that I really grew to enjoy quite quickly.
Speaker:And for me, it also helped me to grow my network and build relationships
Speaker:with people who have gone on to be a really important part of my life.
Speaker:career journey and an important part of my life in terms of mentoring and
Speaker:providing guidance and being sounding boards and probably most importantly
Speaker:being people I could go and have a gin and tonic with when I really needed to.
Speaker:So chairing that NHS providers network.
Speaker:Felt like a big part actually of, stepping up in my
Speaker:NHS communications career.
Speaker:And I would say something that I've learned from that is to push yourself
Speaker:outside of your comfort zone and to grasp opportunities when they come your way.
Speaker:So again, apologies, you will have heard this, but I was being a moaning
Speaker:mini and saying, you know, this network doesn't always meet the needs of
Speaker:communications professionals who are outside of an acute hospital setting.
Speaker:. And the response I was given was, well, if you want to do something about it,
Speaker:put yourself forward to, be that change.
Speaker:And I reflected on that and did it.
Speaker:So I would absolutely say even if there are opportunities that feel a bit scary
Speaker:and a bit big just go for them, because what's the worst thing that can happen?
Speaker:The opportunity doesn't manifest itself, but you know, what have you lost?
Speaker:Nothing.
Speaker:You've had the chance to put yourself forward for something
Speaker:and grow your confidence and, seek feedback if it doesn't work out.
Speaker:So absolutely some of my advice which will come on to you later will be
Speaker:about saying yes to opportunities more.
Speaker:I have to say a most recent highlight for me was during my time as Director
Speaker:of Communications in North East London at the Mental Health and Community Trust
Speaker:there when the communications team won, the corporate team of the year award just
Speaker:to be shortlisted was absolutely amazing.
Speaker:But then to win that unsung heroes award which was a national award and
Speaker:we were up against some absolutely amazing competition, not just from
Speaker:communications, but from across all of the various different support services
Speaker:that, that really helped keep the NHS running from a nonclinical point of view.
Speaker:Yeah, it was an absolute delight and it came towards the very end of my NHS
Speaker:communications career as it was then.
Speaker:So it also felt like a really poignant moment in my role as a
Speaker:communications director there, because, winning that award meant so much
Speaker:to the whole team and being there.
Speaker:to receive that award and see the reaction of team members
Speaker:was just really special.
Speaker:So a huge shout out and thank you to everybody in the NELFT Communications
Speaker:team who helped make that happen.
Speaker:And it was a very well deserved win for sure.
Speaker:And then finally, one of my highlights has been mentoring
Speaker:and supporting others to achieve.
Speaker:what they want to set out to achieve in their careers.
Speaker:And if I've done that in any small way, whether that's as somebody's manager,
Speaker:as a director of communications, as a mentor informally, or whether that's
Speaker:been through Cat's Pajamas and a more formal route of mentoring, that's been an
Speaker:absolute privilege and a huge highlight.
Speaker:And when I see people that I've worked with go on to achieve great things and
Speaker:the things that they want to achieve, I think that's really important to remember.
Speaker:Success and achievement looks different to everybody but when you know what
Speaker:somebody has set out and worked for, and you see them achieve that, there
Speaker:is honestly no greater feeling.
Speaker:And I know a number of the other communications directors
Speaker:that I've interviewed in this series have felt that way.
Speaker:have said similar things and none of us could work out why that feels
Speaker:so great but it really does just give you a buzz and that for me has
Speaker:definitely been one of the highlights.
Speaker:I love working with communications professionals who have aspirations to go
Speaker:on and lead teams of their own and do those sorts of things in their career
Speaker:and and being able to say to them I can't wait until I work for you so particularly
Speaker:when I've been a comms director or a manager in teams and I've recruited people
Speaker:who I just know are going to go on to even brighter things in their future.
Speaker:The thought that one day they could be my manager just fills me with absolute
Speaker:happiness because I think there's so much to learn from the people that,
Speaker:that we work with and yeah, that definitely feels like a highlight for me.
Speaker:if you're an aspiring communications leader who's looking for a safe space to
Speaker:work through your next steps or you want to become more boundaried and intentional
Speaker:in the workplace or even in your career, why not check out the individual and
Speaker:group mentoring offers with Cats Pajamas.
Speaker:You can find out more at cats-pajamas.co.Uk or over on our socials.
Speaker:All the links are in the show notes.
Speaker:So, moving on from the highlights making that decision to become a director I don't
Speaker:really know, again, how that happened.
Speaker:I've not been one of those people who set out at a very early age
Speaker:to have a really specific career pathway or career trajectory.
Speaker:I've been fairly opportunistic, I think, in my career.
Speaker:I'm fairly open to saying yes to things.
Speaker:So I think that being open to opportunities, as well as that
Speaker:desire to push myself to grow.
Speaker:and learn more about myself and what I'm capable of and what sort of leader
Speaker:I could potentially be has definitely been what's helped me make that
Speaker:decision to step up into that director space and become a comms director.
Speaker:I don't think it's for me to say actually whether that was
Speaker:the right career choice for me.
Speaker:I think it's for the people that I've worked with and worked for to say that.
Speaker:But in terms of my own fulfillment and my own growth, then yes, it absolutely
Speaker:was the right decision for me.
Speaker:And it opened my eyes to thinking quite differently about leadership in the
Speaker:workplace and what that really means and how to show up in that space.
Speaker:And that I didn't actually have to be like some of the other
Speaker:leaders I'd seen through my career.
Speaker:And I think as I've progressed through my time in communications, and as a
Speaker:communications director, I've become more and more comfortable in who
Speaker:I am and being myself and knowing that I'm not the finished product,
Speaker:the finished article by any means.
Speaker:I'm just being very open to that and aware of that.
Speaker:So yeah, I guess I did have to make that choice, didn't I, to step up and
Speaker:say, yes, I want more accountability.
Speaker:I want to be able to have more impact.
Speaker:I want to be able to grow my portfolio and have influence on more things
Speaker:more broadly in organizations.
Speaker:Nobody's career comes without a challenge does it?
Speaker:And I think there are some challenges that are specific to working in communications
Speaker:and I think there are also challenges about being female in a leadership role.
Speaker:For me, one of my biggest challenges has been believing that
Speaker:I deserved my place at the table.
Speaker:Even though, as I've mentioned, I'm an extrovert, I have struggled at times
Speaker:throughout my communications career.
Speaker:to be heard, I guess, when I've been at the table.
Speaker:By nature, I'm a people pleaser and I am conflict avoidant.
Speaker:In some leadership teams and spaces, that has felt like a real challenge
Speaker:for me, that being able to put my head up above the parapet and, and make a
Speaker:contribution that I think is valuable.
Speaker:And to feel like I've been heard in that space has definitely
Speaker:been one of my challenges.
Speaker:I think that challenge has come When I've worked in leadership teams that maybe
Speaker:the dynamic hasn't been as good as it could be and teams where maybe there's
Speaker:been some poor leadership behaviors or a lack of alignment around values or
Speaker:alignment around strategy, it's probably proved more challenging then, but it's
Speaker:definitely something that has happened.
Speaker:more than once I would say throughout my career.
Speaker:Another challenge that I faced fairly early on was dealing with some ageist
Speaker:views I , and of course you wouldn't be surprised to hear some sexist views around
Speaker:me and my role and my contribution and what I might want to do with my future.
Speaker:So I spent a fair bit of the early part of my senior communications career being
Speaker:told either directly or indirectly that I was too young which was quite interesting.
Speaker:And that happened not only by senior leaders in the organization at the
Speaker:time that I was working in but by colleagues, so that was an experience
Speaker:that I wasn't expecting to have.
Speaker:A couple of roles ago I remember joining the team as the leader of that team and
Speaker:being going to a meeting and then being told on the way back by a team member
Speaker:that they were really surprised at how I was able to handle a particularly
Speaker:challenging individual because they thought that I was too young and I
Speaker:wouldn't have had enough experience.
Speaker:That's felt like a challenge definitely for me.
Speaker:I've been asked all the questions that I'm sure many Female listeners will also
Speaker:have been asked inappropriately throughout their career about whether I was planning
Speaker:to start a family, so how long would somebody have of me in my comms director
Speaker:role before I was going to go off on maternity leave being called the comms
Speaker:girl when I was appointed as a director of communications and introduced as the
Speaker:comms girl at various different meetings and I'd never heard any of the other
Speaker:directors female or male being referred to as the, the nurse girl or the finance boy.
Speaker:So that was quite interesting and probably related to, to age as well.
Speaker:as well as that, that sexist view that that was okay.
Speaker:Those things have been challenging in my career, but I don't think they're
Speaker:necessarily specific to communications.
Speaker:I guess the challenge that won't be a surprise to comms professionals listening
Speaker:to this is the challenge of everyone else thinking that they're an expert.
Speaker:And having to try really hard to educate colleagues across organizations about
Speaker:the expertise, specialism and value that communications can bring strategically
Speaker:to an organization that's definitely been a challenge for me and something
Speaker:that I've been very passionate about.
Speaker:And for those of you who may be followed along with stuff that
Speaker:I've been doing over the years.
Speaker:Trying really to professionalize communications within the public
Speaker:sector has been something that I've been very passionate about and vocal
Speaker:about and hopefully have made some tiny inroads into with colleagues across
Speaker:various different organizations.
Speaker:It's very hard working in a profession where everybody believes they're a
Speaker:good communicator because they can talk to people and they can listen to
Speaker:people and having that added layer of having to really be able to be evidence
Speaker:based in the conversations that you're having, being able to talk about the
Speaker:level of expertise and skill that you have, not only yourself but within
Speaker:your team to really help to deliver on strategic objectives and outcomes for the
Speaker:organization has felt like an additional.
Speaker:challenge on top of just how demanding and busy a communications role can be.
Speaker:That's definitely a communication specific challenge that I faced in my career.
Speaker:And the final thing that I wanted to raise was working in cultures and
Speaker:with teams that feel quite toxic.
Speaker:And I think toxic cultures and toxic behaviors are probably things
Speaker:that are talked about quite often.
Speaker:a lot now in the leadership space.
Speaker:And I, I wonder whether toxic's a bit of an overused word, but for want of trying
Speaker:to think of a better word to describe it, I have definitely experienced that.
Speaker:And for me, some of that has been over bullying, behaviors
Speaker:and poor role modeling.
Speaker:Some of it has been more under the radar in terms of the way people have behaved
Speaker:and communicated or not with individuals.
Speaker:And I will include myself in that.
Speaker:I have been on the receiving end of some of those poor behaviors,
Speaker:you know, a lack of transparency.
Speaker:no real sense that your input is valued in the conversation strategically
Speaker:or more broadly in the organization.
Speaker:And I think I've experienced that a couple of times really overtly in my
Speaker:career and the first time it was quite early on , in my directorship and I
Speaker:think I felt like I had to keep my head down and just get on and do a good job
Speaker:and not get involved in some of the bullying behaviours in potentially what
Speaker:was perceived in the team at that time.
Speaker:And I'm talking about a leadership team, not a communications team as taking sides.
Speaker:But I look back now and realise that actually, not speaking out and not
Speaker:saying something meant that I was complicit in those bad behaviors.
Speaker:And it's easy now, isn't it, to look back and say I should have done that.
Speaker:And there are obviously reasons why I didn't fear of consequence
Speaker:being one of those, I guess.
Speaker:But I do feel Now, and having experienced more recently a similar situation, I
Speaker:do feel more confident to speak out and to say actually these behaviours
Speaker:don't align with the values that we're all here to uphold and role model.
Speaker:I'm not convinced that you're really thinking through the consequences and
Speaker:impacts of those decisions that you're making and are we putting the right
Speaker:people at the centre of those decisions.
Speaker:So I definitely feel.
Speaker:Like my experience of that toxic culture and poor leadership behaviors was
Speaker:different the second time around And it's really shaped some of my thinking,
Speaker:I guess, about the types of organisation and the types of teams that I want to
Speaker:be part of and the sort of impact that I want to have for others as a leader.
Speaker:It feels a bit challenging actually to talk about it because some of it is
Speaker:still, you know, quite fresh in terms of my experience and I, and I do hear lots
Speaker:from other people that I'm connected with through my mentoring and, and who reach
Speaker:out to me through LinkedIn and other places that it's not a unique experience.
Speaker:And I think as a communications director.
Speaker:It is even harder to try to operate in a poor, negative, potentially
Speaker:toxic culture, because part of our role as comms directors is to help
Speaker:set the tone of the organisation and to help develop and support and embed
Speaker:the culture of the organisation.
Speaker:If you are not aligned with and not enjoying being part of that culture,
Speaker:that can feel really difficult.
Speaker:There's some of my challenges, but I feel like we need to maybe maybe up
Speaker:the, the tempo a little bit, because it feels like that was getting, a
Speaker:little bit deep in terms of some of the difficult things about being
Speaker:a comms director and my career.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So let's move on to what I might consider some of my biggest successes
Speaker:as a communications director.
Speaker:For me it's absolutely, and I've mentioned this already, playing even
Speaker:a tiny part in anyone's journey to success within their own careers.
Speaker:So whether that's supporting people into promotions helping people to identify
Speaker:development opportunities helping people to grow in confidence, to feel
Speaker:more confident in setting boundaries.
Speaker:to work out what it is that they want to do next in their career.
Speaker:Any small part that I've played for individuals in that I have absolutely
Speaker:felt really proud and privileged about, and have definitely been some
Speaker:of my biggest successes in my career.
Speaker:And then my other success, I would say, has been learning how to put
Speaker:my own values, my own integrity, and my own well being first.
Speaker:And that might sound like quite a random thing to say but it is so important,
Speaker:particularly as you progress into leadership spaces where you are Being
Speaker:viewed as a role model potentially for other people in a way that perhaps
Speaker:you're not when you're, you're not in a visible leadership role, being able to
Speaker:be clear on what your values are and what your boundaries might look like around
Speaker:some of those is definitely crucial.
Speaker:And as a communications professional, that integrity is also really important because
Speaker:as communicators, we need to practice.
Speaker:our profession ethically, we need to be able to support open, transparent,
Speaker:honest, two way communications.
Speaker:So our integrity, professional integrity and personal integrity
Speaker:are really crucial to that.
Speaker:But our well being is also really important and if we can't look after
Speaker:our own health and well being, then it will be very challenging for us to
Speaker:play a role in supporting the health and well being of the people that
Speaker:we are working with and our teams.
Speaker:For me, learning how to do that and stepping up and feeling like
Speaker:I've made some brave choices in that space has definitely been
Speaker:one of my biggest successes.
Speaker:Moving on now to the bit that I guess most people have listened to these
Speaker:episodes for, which is the advice and the advice that I would give to aspiring
Speaker:communications directors and leaders.
Speaker:This won't be a surprise having heard me wittering on in this episode about being
Speaker:so open to new opportunities, but for me, I would definitely say, please say
Speaker:yes to opportunities that come your way.
Speaker:If they're opportunities to do something outside of your comfort zone, to step
Speaker:into a space that might not naturally feel like a space you would be in as
Speaker:a communicator, but might broaden your learning, broaden your skill set, broaden
Speaker:your experience, then please do that.
Speaker:But I would also say, Say yes to those opportunities that sit well with you.
Speaker:So don't say yes willy nilly to all sorts of things and then feel like you are
Speaker:kind of impinging on your own integrity or doing things
Speaker:that don't sit right with you.
Speaker:Say yes to those opportunities that align with your values
Speaker:and your career aspirations and your desire to learn for sure.
Speaker:I would also say Make time to grow your network, and I don't mean that in a
Speaker:kind of manipulative way, that sounds like it, like I do, but be really
Speaker:conscious and intentional about the relationships that you are choosing to
Speaker:put your energy and your effort into.
Speaker:and make sure you've got a core set of people around you that you
Speaker:can go to for the things that you need as a communications director.
Speaker:Whether that's the people that you need to go to as sounding boards,
Speaker:whether that's people that you go to for advice, whether that's people that
Speaker:you go to for therapy because sometimes you might need it, it can feel lonely
Speaker:sometimes being a communications director in a big organization.
Speaker:make sure that you are putting the effort and energy into those relationships,
Speaker:which should definitely be two way.
Speaker:And I guess that's what I mean about not wanting to sound like
Speaker:I'm being manipulative about growing your network and nurturing
Speaker:some of those key relationships, because they have to be two way.
Speaker:And you have to consider what those people are going to get back
Speaker:from being part of your network and part of your support circle.
Speaker:That would definitely be my next bit of advice.
Speaker:Get clear on your boundaries, and this is hard for me to say as a people pleaser.
Speaker:I say it to a lot of people all of the time, and it's part of what I
Speaker:talk about on the Thrive Programme in Cat's Pajamas, but I also appreciate,
Speaker:you know, Setting your own boundaries and sticking to them can be really
Speaker:challenging, but once you start to set some boundaries, it helps with so
Speaker:many things in your professional life.
Speaker:It helps you to look after yourself and your own well being.
Speaker:It helps you to look after the time and energy and well being of your team.
Speaker:It helps you to set really clear expectations about what you're
Speaker:role and contribution is as a communications professional and what
Speaker:it isn't it's not being the note taker, coffee maker sandwich getter
Speaker:in meetings because you work in comms.
Speaker:You won't see the inverted commas that I've just done my bunny ears there.
Speaker:I mean, obviously make people cups of tea if you'd like to, because you're a kind.
Speaker:compassionate, caring individual, but not because you're the
Speaker:comms person in the room.
Speaker:Really start to think about what boundaries are important to you
Speaker:and will have the biggest impact for you in your work in life.
Speaker:And start to practice them, and they do take practice, that's for sure.
Speaker:Linked to that, I guess, and mentioned previously, and by other guests on
Speaker:the podcast, is be clear on what you will and won't put up with.
Speaker:Because the moment your professional integrity is challenged, that's the
Speaker:moment you have to make a decision about what you're going to do, what
Speaker:advice you're going to give, how you're going to manage a situation.
Speaker:So, having that clarity on your own.
Speaker:Kind of red lines, that's a phrase that I think Nick used is really important.
Speaker:And my final piece of advice particularly for those of you who are maybe
Speaker:applying for promotions and going for jobs in different teams and maybe
Speaker:even different sectors, just don't try to be someone that you're not.
Speaker:You will really quickly be found out.
Speaker:And actually, it will make it really difficult for you to do your job if you
Speaker:have got that job because you've pretended to be someone who is more of a fist
Speaker:bumper on the table than you really are, or, you know, whatever that might be.
Speaker:Be yourself.
Speaker:Be yourself and then do more of that.
Speaker:And that's some advice that I was given just last week actually about,
Speaker:you're in the room on merit, you're in the room because you're you.
Speaker:So just be more of you.
Speaker:And yeah, that, that's probably where I'm going to end it in terms
Speaker:of this conversation for today.
Speaker:I hope I haven't waffled on too much.
Speaker:I hope there's been some nuggets of useful insight.
Speaker:Sightful thought provoking things , in that conversation.
Speaker:I'm going to end by saying a massive thank you to everybody who's been part
Speaker:of both this series and the first series.
Speaker:I have all intentions of another series to come probably focused on
Speaker:making changes in your communications.
Speaker:career given some of my own personal experience recently.
Speaker:Hopefully that will come out later this year or early into the new year.
Speaker:And the biggest of thank yous has to go to all of you for listening.
Speaker:I've really appreciated it.
Speaker:It's really been something that's felt important for me in terms of my
Speaker:desire to support other communications professionals in any which way that I can.
Speaker:So for those of you who've stuck with this and listened, and for any
Speaker:newbies who are listening for the first time, I'm hugely grateful.
Speaker:Thank you so much.
Speaker:for you doing that.
Speaker:And please do share please do tell me what you thought about the podcast episodes
Speaker:and what you'd like to hear more of.
Speaker:And please do reach out if I can support you in any way.
Speaker:So thank you so much, everybody.
Speaker:I hope you've enjoyed listening and I'll be back for another
Speaker:series at some point soon.
Speaker:thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.
Speaker:I'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
Speaker:and leave a rating or a review.
Speaker:You can also engage with me over on the socials.
Speaker:I'm on Insta and X at @catspjs_uk of course you can find me over on LinkedIn.
Speaker:Hope to catch up with you soon.
