S2E7 Behind the Bob - the one with Nick Pearson
In this episode of Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director, Carrie-Ann Wade is in conversation with Nick Pearson about the successes and challenges of his career to date and his advice for aspiring communications leaders.
Nick is a communications leader with more than 25 years’ experience and runs Pearson & Pearson (communications) Ltd with his wife, Vicky. He began his career in the media and in 2004 he joined the NHS. During the COVID-19 pandemic Nick was Director of Communications for a Nightingale Hospital. His last role in the NHS was Chief of Staff at NHS Devon.
Nick shares his passion for politics and how that has shaped his career as well as his desire to develop teams and individuals. And one of his key bits of advice is to know your red lines. The importance of integrity and knowing what you stand for in your role working with other senior leaders is crucial when you are the person who may well have to challenge the decision making and strategy.
Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director
Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with Carrie-Ann Wade.
This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career. You’ll hear from Carrie-Ann about her own personal experiences and insights and there might even be a special guest or two popping up.
The first series focused on diversity in the communications profession and how to create more opportunities for people to see communications as a profession they would like to work in. The second series explores the lives of communications directors to help inspire and support communications leaders of the future.
Behind the Bob gives you a sneak peek into life as a comms director and provides you with all the "behind the scenes" knowledge to help you thrive as a communications leader.
Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed listening please share it, leave a rating or a review. It really does help the podcast reach more communicators!
New episodes of Behind the Bob are published on Wednesdays and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.
You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk
Transcript
Carrie-Ann Wade: Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with
Speaker:me, Carrie-Ann Wade.
Speaker:This
Speaker:Carrie-Ann Wade: podcast is all about developing communications leaders
Speaker:of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.
Speaker:You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even
Speaker:be a special guest or two popping up.
Speaker:So I hope you enjoy.
Speaker:Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of Behind the
Speaker:Bob diary of a comms director.
Speaker:You'll know in this series that I'm talking to some brilliant communicators
Speaker:from a range of different sectors and professions and I'm delighted to be joined
Speaker:by Nick Pearson for this conversation.
Speaker:So welcome Nick.
Nick Pearson:Thanks very much, Carrie..
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: It's lovely to have you here.
Nick Pearson:I'm excited to hear a bit more about your comms career to date and probably
Nick Pearson:all of the exciting stuff that you're up to now, but we will delve a little bit
Nick Pearson:into, into some of your career history because I know you started out in the
Nick Pearson:press, in journalism, you made a move into NHS comms, including if we Managed
Nick Pearson:to make it back to pan the pandemic in any of this conversation as a director of
Nick Pearson:comms for One of the nightingales, in the country and now very excitingly you are
Nick Pearson:Out doing your own thing as a director in pearson and pearson So shall we start
Nick Pearson:with hearing a little bit from you about your career to date and also maybe why
Nick Pearson:you chose Communications and that move from from the press into comms Okay.
Nick Pearson:Okay.
Nick Pearson:Okay.
Nick Pearson:I was I worked in air traffic control.
Nick Pearson:So yeah prior to be to going into journalism So for about five years,
Nick Pearson:I was an assistant air traffic controller, in the extra area
Nick Pearson:So it was it wasn't really busy.
Nick Pearson:We're not talking about jumbos and all that kind of stuff, but and I can remember
Nick Pearson:I kind of took some time away from that and went traveling with my girlfriend at
Nick Pearson:the time, now my wife, and now the other, the other Pearson in Pearson and Pearson.
Nick Pearson:And I came back from that still totally addicted to the news and
Nick Pearson:thinking, well, what am I going to do?
Nick Pearson:And and I thought, I don't want to listen to the news anymore.
Nick Pearson:I kind of want to write the news and I want to get involved in, in a very
Nick Pearson:different way and, and take a bit more Yeah, a bit more responsibility, I
Nick Pearson:suppose, for doing all that sort of stuff.
Nick Pearson:And I hadn't been to university, so I thought, right, how am I
Nick Pearson:going to, what am I going to do?
Nick Pearson:I want to be a journalist.
Nick Pearson:How am I going to do this?
Nick Pearson:So I went to university and came out the other side.
Nick Pearson:It took ages to get into it because it's really, it was really hard
Nick Pearson:to get into journalism as I'm sure you're aware at the time.
Nick Pearson:And I joined a free newspaper but it was a free newspaper and don't
Nick Pearson:don't think ill of me for this, but it was in the day mail group.
Nick Pearson:And,
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: no, Nick,
Nick Pearson:know so you know,
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: we'll forgive you, we'll
Nick Pearson:didn't, yeah, I didn't join it because it was a daily mail,
Nick Pearson:it was because it was free training.
Nick Pearson:And I got really great training, so I went off to Hastings the editorial
Nick Pearson:college there, and I did a three year.
Nick Pearson:I suppose you would call it apprenticeship.
Nick Pearson:And then worked my way up and then went to the from there, it was in
Nick Pearson:the Bristol Evening post group.
Nick Pearson:So I went to the Bristol evening post, and from there I went
Nick Pearson:to the Western Daily Press.
Nick Pearson:I became political correspondent and I was all about politics and on the news angle.
Nick Pearson:And then one day, and stop me if I'm talking too much,
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: No, never.
Nick Pearson:I'm interested.
Nick Pearson:I'm just a little aside.
Nick Pearson:I'll say, I'm not wanting to date our podcast episode, but we are recording this
Nick Pearson:the morning after the general election.
Nick Pearson:So , for somebody with such a keen interest in the politics, Nick, I'm
Nick Pearson:very grateful that you are awake and, and, and willing to be on this epiosde.
Nick Pearson:Well, it's funny you should say that Carrie, because I went
Nick Pearson:to bed specifically at four o'clock because I knew I was going to do this.
Nick Pearson:I thought
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Oh no, I ruined your election night.
Nick Pearson:I've got to have some semblance of normality about
Nick Pearson:me when I speak to you else.
Nick Pearson:It's it won't go very well Yeah, but yes, you're right.
Nick Pearson:It's very a very interesting night watch last night and a very interesting day
Nick Pearson:to day to see what's been going on.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, so I then worked in sort of political journalism and that was like my
Nick Pearson:dream come true really because You I got to meet so my heroes were were politicians
Nick Pearson:and to an extent and it's to a probably to a lesser extent nowadays still are
Nick Pearson:but I had the pleasure of interviewing a lot of my heroes at the time.
Nick Pearson:And and that was great, you know, and I'd hang around with them a bit.
Nick Pearson:Well, I wouldn't hang around.
Nick Pearson:I'd go out for dinner with them.
Nick Pearson:I'd go out in the evenings with them and, so in no particular order, but yeah,
Nick Pearson:the Ian Duncan Smiths Michael Howard's Charles Kennedy, who was, you know, he
Nick Pearson:was great, and obviously all the Labour guys at times, like Gordon Brown, Robin
Nick Pearson:Cook, Jack Straw, all of those guys I managed to get interviews with and spend
Nick Pearson:some time with, which was fantastic.
Nick Pearson:And but I, after a while,
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: of 2020.
Nick Pearson:You
Nick Pearson:day here's the, here's the headline on this story, go out and get
Nick Pearson:the, go and get that story, and To me, that wasn't what journalism was about.
Nick Pearson:I was about getting the story and then subs can come up with a headline.
Nick Pearson:And I thought, well, if this, cause I had a, I had a chance of going going
Nick Pearson:to live in London, go national or not.
Nick Pearson:And after that, I kind of thought, well, if, if this is what it's going to be
Nick Pearson:like, where they're writing the headlines before I've written the story, then.
Nick Pearson:I'm going to do that and I'm going to do that in something
Nick Pearson:that I really believe in.
Nick Pearson:So the next step for me was working in the NHS.
Nick Pearson:I always really believed in people, really believed in The
Nick Pearson:power of persuasion, the power of journalism to do, good, really.
Nick Pearson:And it sounds a bit, it sounds a bit trite, but I still believe that.
Nick Pearson:So the NHS was a natural stepping stone.
Nick Pearson:And I and I went into the NHS as a communications manager.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Excellent.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, so that was back in 2004.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: And so that's taken you up to your sort of NHS more public
Nick Pearson:sector career and just hearing you speak, there's something for me there
Nick Pearson:about that importance of integrity.
Nick Pearson:So you're like, no, I'm not going to be given the headline
Nick Pearson:and then find the story.
Nick Pearson:I go where the story is and then, and then that comes after.
Nick Pearson:So it feels like there's a good match maybe with some of your personal
Nick Pearson:values and your professional integrity um, in moving into the public in
Nick Pearson:moving into the public sector.
Nick Pearson:So was it that kind of similarity or that thinking that what you'd learnt as a
Nick Pearson:journalist would be important in the NHS?
Nick Pearson:Or was there something else that kind of drew you to a comms career in the NHS?
Nick Pearson:, Nick Pearson: I really believe in, you know, wanting to do good in, life.
Nick Pearson:I think that's what it's really all about.
Nick Pearson:So if you can help people, then that's got to be, I mean, for me personally,
Nick Pearson:that's the number one priority.
Nick Pearson:And if you have.
Nick Pearson:some skills in something, then you want to put that to best practice.
Nick Pearson:I had colleagues that were working in, for example, British nuclear fuels or
Nick Pearson:British American tobacco, and they'd left journalism to go and do that.
Nick Pearson:Presumably that's where some of the money was.
Nick Pearson:That was never my motivation.
Nick Pearson:It was always something else.
Nick Pearson:That's not to disparage people that do that, because it also, it's also
Nick Pearson:very important in some respect.
Nick Pearson:I'm not sure about the British American tobacco, but certainly
Nick Pearson:nuclear fuel nowadays.
Nick Pearson:So yeah, , wanting to work alongside people who were clinicians who were
Nick Pearson:helping people and you know, and that proved to be really match my my
Nick Pearson:values really match my values and the people that work in the NHS are just.
Nick Pearson:You know, brilliant people, I'm always amazed with how great they
Nick Pearson:are and how compassionate they are.
Nick Pearson:And I kind of met my, I suppose, and you may understand this I
Nick Pearson:think most of us do in the NHS, but you kind of meet your tribe.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah.
Nick Pearson:I met my people and I wanted to do everything and
Nick Pearson:anything possible to help really.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: I wondered if, cause you've mentioned some of the highlights
Nick Pearson:of your political journalist career with, you know, meeting some of your
Nick Pearson:heroes, but could you share a few maybe of your highlights of your well, if it's
Nick Pearson:2004, 20 year NHS comms career, which feels like a lot to kind of distill down,
Nick Pearson:but I like to, I like to hear some of the good stuff before we get into the
Nick Pearson:nitty gritty of some of the things that
Nick Pearson:Yeah, I was thinking about this.
Nick Pearson:It's really difficult because apart from anything else, I'm kind
Nick Pearson:of 53 now, so it's kind of like, oh my God, my, I, did I do that?
Nick Pearson:I'm not sure I did that, did I do that?
Nick Pearson:So I'm starting to forget things, which is not great.
Nick Pearson:But I had a, I had a, a few thoughts about it, so, you know, I did a few kind
Nick Pearson:of royal openings of hospitals, which are a great for frontline staff, a great
Nick Pearson:for people that like that sort of thing.
Nick Pearson:And so it was really important to me, even though it wouldn't
Nick Pearson:necessarily be my natural place to be.
Nick Pearson:I wanted to do that to help nurses, doctors , who really thought that
Nick Pearson:was, you know, a great thing.
Nick Pearson:And it was certainly a great thing to open hospitals.
Nick Pearson:So I did that two or three times, I think, which were always
Nick Pearson:these things are always managed.
Nick Pearson:You'll know.
Nick Pearson:Carrie but always managed to the eighth degree, you know, it's so
Nick Pearson:difficult to get those things, right?
Nick Pearson:And you've got to work with the obviously work with the representatives
Nick Pearson:of the royal family and the planning for it goes on for months and months
Nick Pearson:and months and all the security detail and everything around it is massive
Nick Pearson:. The things that have always been close to my heart we were talking
Nick Pearson:off camera about it not being about messaging and communications,
Nick Pearson:not purely being about messaging.
Nick Pearson:I couldn't agree more because the things that I really enjoyed with
Nick Pearson:a meaningful projects, we could get involved with local people and talk
Nick Pearson:to them about their local services and work alongside the clinicians.
Nick Pearson:And look at how you just redesign services in future with them.
Nick Pearson:Because that's when you make a real difference to people's lives.
Nick Pearson:That's when communications is really working in the best interest of people.
Nick Pearson:in my experience.
Nick Pearson:And I've had the pleasure of doing that a few times as well.
Nick Pearson:And.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, that's been fantastic.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Okay.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:and you get so much out of it as a communicator.
Nick Pearson:It feels real.
Nick Pearson:if you can turn things around, I've been lucky enough to be able to do that where
Nick Pearson:things have been really quite poor.
Nick Pearson:So where the NHS reputation perhaps hasn't been quite so good going in
Nick Pearson:there, working for a couple of years, literally a couple of years with people
Nick Pearson:around the table, meeting every couple of weeks and getting them on board and
Nick Pearson:then bringing in new services for them and seeing it come out the other side.
Nick Pearson:And That's been brilliant.
Nick Pearson:So, so things like that are where I get my sustenance from.
Nick Pearson:Other, you know, other things, I suppose that the, I was director
Nick Pearson:of comms for a short while of the Nightingale hospital in Exeter.
Nick Pearson:And that's, I've never worked so hard in my life and I've worked hard.
Nick Pearson:No, I really have.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: A fair few of us that have
Nick Pearson:Oh my God.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: experience through COVID where we were like, , neighbours,
Nick Pearson:you know, must be very stressful being furloughed, but neighbours in
Nick Pearson:the garden having gin and tonics at three and you're like, I've never
Nick Pearson:worked as many hours in my life just flat out trying to make things happen.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:are working harder they're, and when we knew not very much about
Nick Pearson:COVID, we didn't know whether they were putting themselves, you know, real harm.
Nick Pearson:We didn't know whether they were going to die as a result.
Nick Pearson:We didn't know that stuff and , I was just working at home in my office,
Nick Pearson:but I was working at kind of, I don't know, six in the morning till, not
Nick Pearson:six, but seven, seven in the morning till, you know, sometimes 11 at night.
Nick Pearson:And, but, but that was over a long period and while you, while you start
Nick Pearson:off like that, Towards the end, it got, got very difficult to do that.
Nick Pearson:I started to develop kind of all sorts of health sort of stuff and just do it,
Nick Pearson:just being in my office, doing that.
Nick Pearson:Like many, many other, others of us behind the scenes in the NHS.
Nick Pearson:But we did it because we, we really believed in what we were doing.
Nick Pearson:And again, it comes back to really wanting to help people, that was a real
Nick Pearson:honor to have done, to have done that.
Nick Pearson:Our Hospital in exeter 116 beds.
Nick Pearson:Five wards delivered in, I think it was 57 days.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Wow.
Nick Pearson:incredible really.
Nick Pearson:And it's gone on to be, and it was used for covid, but it's
Nick Pearson:gone on to be repurposed now.
Nick Pearson:So it's it's now hips and it does hips and knees and some cancer screening as well.
Nick Pearson:So the legacy of it.
Nick Pearson:Not only did it help in the pandemic, but it's got gone on to, to be something
Nick Pearson:that's really useful to local people.
Nick Pearson:And and that's a great thing.
Nick Pearson:That's a great thing.
Nick Pearson:So I'm proud to have done that.
Nick Pearson:There's lots, I mean, the kind of minutiae of news and all that stuff over the years
Nick Pearson:has been it's been, Just been a bit rock and roll and it's kind of what it makes
Nick Pearson:it makes it fun I quite like the new stuff and I but it's not where this I don't find
Nick Pearson:it so much having Dealt with the news and
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: You
Nick Pearson:I think it's all about the relationships.
Nick Pearson:But interestingly I didn't start out that way.
Nick Pearson:I was pretty arrogant, I think when I started actually looking back and Nicola
Nick Pearson:Bonas some people may know who's now the assistant director of communications
Nick Pearson:in and so she was my deputy for her.
Nick Pearson:years, many years.
Nick Pearson:We're having this conversation the other day.
Nick Pearson:So I had a leaving do left the NHS quite recently, and she
Nick Pearson:basically said the same thing.
Nick Pearson:That was really arrogant.
Nick Pearson:I didn't have any.
Nick Pearson:I didn't have any
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: was right.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, I didn't have any time for comms people because I
Nick Pearson:thought all this theory was nonsense.
Nick Pearson:This is when I started out, until I started to study the theory and and
Nick Pearson:then that started to go and I realized that comms people are really skilled
Nick Pearson:individuals and they're done into, I think, in some respects by journalists
Nick Pearson:who don't really understand, what we do and they think they know better.
Nick Pearson:And I have to say I've got nothing but re total respect for comms people.
Nick Pearson:And we do a really good job.
Nick Pearson:We help others do their jobs much, much better.
Nick Pearson:I think so.
Nick Pearson:So that's a good turnaround, but only took 19 years, you know,
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: It only took 19 years for you to realise it,
Nick Pearson:but at least you did in the end.
Nick Pearson:And validated by feedback from others that yes, you were.
Nick Pearson:But
Nick Pearson:Thanks.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: but obviously that arrogance, if that's
Nick Pearson:what you want to call it.
Nick Pearson:And you've said that yourself.
Nick Pearson:That didn't last very long, I don't imagine, because you went on to a hugely
Nick Pearson:fulfilling and rewarding NHS comms career.
Nick Pearson:And, you know, there's so many things in what you've just said,
Nick Pearson:before I go into the next question.
Nick Pearson:One of which was, crisis comms is the bread and butter of
Nick Pearson:quite a lot of communications professionals careers, I guess.
Nick Pearson:But COVID was like, the most prolonged crisis comms incident we ever had.
Nick Pearson:Because I think communicators are used to dealing with the crisis and it happens.
Nick Pearson:And you deal with it and it's fairly short term, but actually this felt
Nick Pearson:like being in crisis comms mode for months and months and months
Nick Pearson:and moved into years, didn't it?
Nick Pearson:So I'm with you with kudos to all the comms professionals and people behind the
Nick Pearson:scenes in whichever organisations they worked in, NHS or otherwise, that were
Nick Pearson:just there keeping everything going during that time because that was hard work.
Nick Pearson:So, thank you for your service, Nick.
Nick Pearson:Thank you very much.
Nick Pearson:And you
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: and, and the other thing that I love to hear in you say,
Nick Pearson:particularly because of the background that you have come from into your comms
Nick Pearson:career was about that bit that isn't just about telling people what to do.
Nick Pearson:It's not just about giving out one way messaging.
Nick Pearson:And for me, communications is all about, having a conversation and connecting
Nick Pearson:and part of that is about listening isn't it and then acting on what you
Nick Pearson:hear so it's lovely to hear a comms professional kind of talk about that
Nick Pearson:and see the true sense and value of what good communications can bring for an
Nick Pearson:organization that is beyond just the one way we just push out what we want you to
Nick Pearson:know and that's all we do because I think that is very old fashioned in terms of
Nick Pearson:a view of what a communications function is there to do for an organization.
Nick Pearson:couldn't agree more Carrie when one of the problems I
Nick Pearson:had, I've always had with the term communications involvement and engagement
Nick Pearson:or however, whatever order you want to put that in is that it implies in
Nick Pearson:a way that communications is one way.
Nick Pearson:And that because you then have to say involvement and engagement and, you
Nick Pearson:know, communications is not, it's never been a monologue, has it?
Nick Pearson:It's always been listen, listen first talk a little bit, if you don't understand
Nick Pearson:something, get some clarity on it listen again, and so on and so forth.
Nick Pearson:My experience in the NHS is often people have looked at what we do and
Nick Pearson:thought it's all about messaging.
Nick Pearson:And it really, really isn't, and trying to, even, you know, all these years later,
Nick Pearson:there's still elements of that in the NHS.
Nick Pearson:I don't think it's probably any different in any other profession,
Nick Pearson:by the way, but I only know really well the NHS, and it's still there.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:We've got to move beyond that and we've got to get it into much more
Nick Pearson:of a grown up conversation with people about what it is that we do.
Nick Pearson:And also you know, really listen to what people are saying to us
Nick Pearson:so that we can really help them.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: if you're an aspiring communications leader who's looking
Nick Pearson:for a safe space to work through your next steps or you want to become more
Nick Pearson:boundaried and intentional in the workplace or even in your career, why
Nick Pearson:not check out the individual and group mentoring offers with Cats Pajamas.
Nick Pearson:You can find out more at cats-pajamas.co.Uk or over on our socials.
Nick Pearson:All the links are in the show notes.
Nick Pearson:I'm going to move us on a little bit.
Nick Pearson:And just before we get to, because you've mentioned Pearson and Pearson,
Nick Pearson:which you are now running and leading with your wife, and I love that.
Nick Pearson:about the fact that you, A, I loved the fact that you went off traveling, that
Nick Pearson:you were an air traffic controller, then went off traveling, and then almost had
Nick Pearson:a huge, you know, pivot and did something different, but also with the fact that
Nick Pearson:that was with your then girlfriend, who is now your wife and business partner
Nick Pearson:at Pearson and Pearson, so I do want to hear about that, but before we get
Nick Pearson:into that conversation, I guess thinking about your NHS career, you said you went
Nick Pearson:in as a comms manager, maybe a little bit green because You had some level
Nick Pearson:of, , expectation about what that would be like, , coming from a press background,
Nick Pearson:and you mentioned that you've just left the NHS and I think you most recently
Nick Pearson:left a role as Chief of Staff, so you've clearly progressed through the ranks, as
Nick Pearson:it were, through your NHS career, and I just wondered, how did you decide that you
Nick Pearson:wanted to take those next steps to become more senior, to maybe have a bigger more
Nick Pearson:accountable role in your comms career?
Nick Pearson:It never occurred to me not to advance, I kind of thought I must,
Nick Pearson:and I think that might have been borne out the fact actually that that I was
Nick Pearson:quite late to the party, so I worked.
Nick Pearson:As I
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: You
Nick Pearson:In air traffic as an air traffic assistant all those years ago.
Nick Pearson:And I was quite late into doing what I really wanted to do.
Nick Pearson:I think I was probably in a bit of catch up mode.
Nick Pearson:But the other driver for me was always about influence.
Nick Pearson:So if, if I started out wanting to, to be a journalist because I wanted
Nick Pearson:to try and influence for the good, how people thought and acted the logical
Nick Pearson:extension of that is that to get into more powerful positions, I suppose, and
Nick Pearson:what, what, what you don't necessarily.
Nick Pearson:You know, at the time, though, is that the higher up the ladder you go, actually,
Nick Pearson:the less power you actually have.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: so true, isn't it?
Nick Pearson:I thought that myself about something a few months back, but I thought,
Nick Pearson:I'm sure I was having more impact.
Nick Pearson:Like.
Nick Pearson:20 years ago at the start of my career when I was doing all of this exciting
Nick Pearson:like campaigns with service users and all of that kind of stuff and now
Nick Pearson:I'm just basically managing people's egos and trying to stop people having
Nick Pearson:arguments in the boardroom, which I'm not sure that was what I signed up for.
Nick Pearson:totally about that.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:And signing stuff off and going, yeah, yeah, that seems about right.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, that's fine.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, let's do that.
Nick Pearson:And, you know, so decisions already made.
Nick Pearson:So, I was always going to do something like, you know, I've ended up doing
Nick Pearson:because when you're chief of staff, you do get to work at the top level
Nick Pearson:with the chief execs obviously with the, with the directors and they
Nick Pearson:become your group that you basically enact all your business with.
Nick Pearson:So so yeah, so you, so you get to that position and then, and then
Nick Pearson:you try and do your best to, to, to influence and to, to make things better.
Nick Pearson:I think, as you said, the most rewarding thing is when you're actually
Nick Pearson:doing proper comms with people.
Nick Pearson:When you're using your skills that you've learned over the years and and actually, I
Nick Pearson:do think that's when you have most effect.
Nick Pearson:I did some work in a small village in Devon about bringing people
Nick Pearson:together and working on the services.
Nick Pearson:And that may be helped.
Nick Pearson:I don't know.
Nick Pearson:I can't remember how many people, maybe 10, 000 people.
Nick Pearson:That's a lot of people don't get me wrong, but it's not you know,
Nick Pearson:it's not millions of people.
Nick Pearson:You're not changing the lives of millions of people.
Nick Pearson:But, but if you can even change, change your life and, and.
Nick Pearson:of just maybe one, two, three, four, five people.
Nick Pearson:Then how good is that?
Nick Pearson:. We're so lucky to do our jobs.
Nick Pearson:And so to be able to influence anybody's life is an amazing, is an amazing thing.
Nick Pearson:So so yeah, so it kind of just felt like a natural progression that I try
Nick Pearson:and get as high as I could not like, as I said, I got to chief of staff,
Nick Pearson:which was enjoyed that for a few, I did that for three years and then.
Nick Pearson:It was time for me to set up on my own.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: So, will you tell us a little bit about that, Nick?
Nick Pearson:Because that's exciting too.
Nick Pearson:And I love that, you know, it's been such a journey.
Nick Pearson:I've heard from some brilliant communicators through the podcast, some of
Nick Pearson:whom have been you know, I think there's a lot of people who have branched out
Nick Pearson:and set up on their own, some who are in house, some who are private sector, not
Nick Pearson:public, but I'm always intrigued to hear about, you know, partly the why, like,
Nick Pearson:you know, what got you to that point
Nick Pearson:It does.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, no, it's been fantastic.
Nick Pearson:I think it goes back to that time when I thought, right, I
Nick Pearson:want to be writing the news.
Nick Pearson:I want, I want to be involved in the, in influencing people.
Nick Pearson:So way back then, and we came back from traveling and, and we
Nick Pearson:were also sure that we wanted to work together, even at that stage.
Nick Pearson:And that, that was a long time ago.
Nick Pearson:But we haven't managed it for 19 years.
Nick Pearson:So it's taken 19 years to get there.
Nick Pearson:So it's kind of bit like, I suppose you could call it a bit of a plan.
Nick Pearson:The 19 years after we first kind of thought that we are
Nick Pearson:starting to work together.
Nick Pearson:So Vicky, my wife was a so we went to university at the same time.
Nick Pearson:She studied graphic design and packaging and and then did that for a
Nick Pearson:few years before we had the children.
Nick Pearson:And then she's carried that on, on and off over those intervening years as well.
Nick Pearson:And and then when the opportunity came, so I thought, yeah, I could set up something.
Nick Pearson:I was thinking Pearson.
Nick Pearson:I don't know, Pearson.
Nick Pearson:Hang on, Vicky, what, why don't we do that?
Nick Pearson:You know, so we, so we had a chat about it and she said, yeah,
Nick Pearson:we'd love, we'd love to do that.
Nick Pearson:We can finally do it.
Nick Pearson:So Pearson and Pearson was born and it's been up and running now
Nick Pearson:for about two or three months.
Nick Pearson:It's doing really well.
Nick Pearson:I'm so pleased.
Nick Pearson:I mean, I'm so lucky in so many things in my life, but When I came out of the NHS,
Nick Pearson:I managed to get a really, really decent, lovely client and I'm working with at the
Nick Pearson:moment and a couple of others as well.
Nick Pearson:So that's all going really well and I love it.
Nick Pearson:It's absolutely brilliant to be freed, to be freed up to think big thoughts again.
Nick Pearson:Oh, it's lovely.
Nick Pearson:So that's, that's what it feels like at the moment.
Nick Pearson:But I'll let you know.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, we'll keep a watch in brief because I'm sure there'll
Nick Pearson:be, you know, it'll be a rollercoaster of emotions running your own business.
Nick Pearson:But how lovely that all that time ago you both knew that one day that is what you
Nick Pearson:wanted to do was work together and that's testament to a really strong and good
Nick Pearson:positive relationship that 19 years later you still want to and you are doing it.
Nick Pearson:So you must be doing something right in life as well as in work Nick.
Nick Pearson:, Nick Pearson: I certainly want to, whether Vic will want to after another few
Nick Pearson:months of working with me, I don't know.
Nick Pearson:We shall see.
Nick Pearson:But no, I'm joking.
Nick Pearson:No, absolutely.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:Great to be working together.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: I feel like I missed a trick because I
Nick Pearson:could have got two for the day.
Nick Pearson:The price of one on the podcast,
Nick Pearson:Actually, that's a good point.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: as well.
Nick Pearson:Shouldn't I say, maybe we'll have to do, maybe we'll have to do a part two
Nick Pearson:where both you are in conversation with me about what it's like.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:Good idea.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: So that's taken us right up to the very immediate now.
Nick Pearson:Before we get into a bit of advice, maybe for potential comms directors of
Nick Pearson:the future and people who want to step into those leadership roles, I wondered
Nick Pearson:if you had any thoughts about what your biggest challenge perhaps has been to
Nick Pearson:date in a senior comms leadership role.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, it's There are many challenges that come thick and fast.
Nick Pearson:Every day you're having to make sort of decisions and choices about things some
Nick Pearson:of those, you know Somebody said actually my dad said to me a little while ago if
Nick Pearson:you can get more than 50 percent, right?
Nick Pearson:You're doing a good job and I I think that's probably right.
Nick Pearson:It doesn't sound like a lot, does it?
Nick Pearson:50%, but, but when they're coming so thick and fast so it's worth just
Nick Pearson:being humble about that as well that, you know, you're not going to get
Nick Pearson:everything right, but the hardest thing you can do in the NHS, I think,
Nick Pearson:is and it's always been consultation.
Nick Pearson:Statutory consultation is another level in terms of communications because the
Nick Pearson:things you have to do are set out, well, they kind of are set out and they're kind
Nick Pearson:of not set out because of the way the law is and the way the law's been interpreted
Nick Pearson:over the years and changed by case law.
Nick Pearson:And that's part of the problem.
Nick Pearson:But that is without doubt.
Nick Pearson:The hardest thing that I've had to do and I've done a couple of those and
Nick Pearson:It was really hard work so I did a maternity one in community hospitals.
Nick Pearson:This was about moving, maternity services to other places rather
Nick Pearson:than in their local area.
Nick Pearson:And of course, what you're dealing with is people's, you know, They've had, you
Nick Pearson:know, women have had children, families have had children in those hospitals.
Nick Pearson:They are deeply, deeply connected to those hospitals.
Nick Pearson:And then when you say to them, well, by the way, we're going
Nick Pearson:to come along and we're going to move that service to over here.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: a
Nick Pearson:It's, it's kind of like World War III.
Nick Pearson:You've just opened up there's this, this massive
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: have
Nick Pearson:you in the NHS , and the people.
Nick Pearson:And of course, it's the people's NHS.
Nick Pearson:That kind of takes a lot to bridge or to try to bridge that gap.
Nick Pearson:And that's what obviously we're all about communications and bridging gaps.
Nick Pearson:But I would say it's almost impossible.
Nick Pearson:It's almost impossible to do it in a way that people are going
Nick Pearson:to be happy is what I would say.
Nick Pearson:It's possible to do it in a way that you tick the boxes, you make sure
Nick Pearson:you meet your requirements and you make sure you don't break the law.
Nick Pearson:And actually that's probably what good looks like.
Nick Pearson:If we're honest about these things, because as soon as you get into it,
Nick Pearson:The local MPs who, who before maybe were fairly lukewarm about it are
Nick Pearson:suddenly really, really anti it.
Nick Pearson:Of course they are.
Nick Pearson:I mean, you know, you've got to be realistic about these things.
Nick Pearson:And you always knew that was going to be the case anyway.
Nick Pearson:From saying kind of lukewarm, kind of behind the scenes.
Nick Pearson:They, they're on the front pages of the newspapers that, you know,
Nick Pearson:overall the media saying how awful it is and so on and so forth.
Nick Pearson:But the really hard one I did was and, you know, ostensibly, , this
Nick Pearson:doesn't sound great because we were talking about , closing hospital
Nick Pearson:beds in community hospitals in three.
Nick Pearson:Hospitals in my area when I led that the consultation on that.
Nick Pearson:And can you imagine that really?
Nick Pearson:nightmares about it now.
Nick Pearson:I'm thinking, Oh my God, cause we, we, we did it over three months and we
Nick Pearson:traveled to every area of Devon and went into town halls, went into the library.
Nick Pearson:He's did all that stuff.
Nick Pearson:, I can just remember, there was one time, I don't know if you've seen
Nick Pearson:that, there's a painting in the French Revolution where they they're all in the
Nick Pearson:the assembly and people are looking in at the in the windows at the top that
Nick Pearson:there's, there's storm clouds overhead and it just looks like complete chaos.
Nick Pearson:It felt a bit like that they're really concerned about it.
Nick Pearson:And they showed that concern by being really, really angry.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: hmm.
Nick Pearson:Don't blame them one bit.
Nick Pearson:But again, talk about helping the organization and, and then helping it
Nick Pearson:through, you know,, we may, They've been doing the right thing and certainly what
Nick Pearson:the clinicians were saying at the time the evidence was saying was that they're
Nick Pearson:much elderly people are much better once they've come out of come out of acute
Nick Pearson:hospitals they're much better at, you know, being at home and certainly being
Nick Pearson:rehabilitated and certainly if they come into a community hospital they will
Nick Pearson:if they're not rehabilitated, if they don't Do the things and not with the
Nick Pearson:people that they with you know, usually every day they start to go downhill
Nick Pearson:fairly quickly You start to lose muscle mass So there's some really good
Nick Pearson:evidence about why it isn't a good thing
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Okay.
Nick Pearson:And we had all of that to do.
Nick Pearson:But we got that through, we got that through and certainly I think it's
Nick Pearson:in a very much better state now in terms of the care that people receive
Nick Pearson:at home than had we not done that.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: And I'm sure it would be a whole other podcast episode if
Nick Pearson:we got onto the conversation about perhaps needing to have some of those
Nick Pearson:grown up conversations about healthcare and the NHS with our communities
Nick Pearson:and with our workforce and with our politicians all together, because I think
Nick Pearson:sometimes that's the issue, isn't it?
Nick Pearson:That, you know, there's an expectation from our communities
Nick Pearson:about what they want from their NHS.
Nick Pearson:There's expectations around what can actually be delivered in
Nick Pearson:terms of resource and capacity and environment and all of that stuff.
Nick Pearson:And we, we never seem to yet have quite cracked having that conversation, which is
Nick Pearson:exactly as you said, which is we're never going to please everybody all of the time.
Nick Pearson:So we're having to get to the best possible end state for Most of the
Nick Pearson:people as best we can and and I think sometimes people find it hard to have
Nick Pearson:that sort of conversation don't they and I think you know in the brave new
Nick Pearson:world on Day one of a new government that maybe we could be hopeful that perhaps
Nick Pearson:Communications might take center stage in the way that we've talked about, which
Nick Pearson:is, it's not just about telling people, it's about genuinely connecting with
Nick Pearson:people and having those conversations.
Nick Pearson:But I feel like that could be a whole other podcast episode, if
Nick Pearson:not a series in itself, Nick.
Nick Pearson:I think it should.
Nick Pearson:I think it should be because yeah, to re yeah, definitely.
Nick Pearson:And so important to do that.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: some of the challenge that you faced.
Nick Pearson:I will get to the nitty gritty of why I assume people are listening
Nick Pearson:to this podcast around some of your advice, but I never like to just
Nick Pearson:talk about the difficult stuff.
Nick Pearson:And I know you've shared some of the highlights of your career to date,
Nick Pearson:but I wondered if in that comms leadership space, you had something
Nick Pearson:that you would consider one of your, successes that you might want to
Nick Pearson:Well, yeah, that that's really, that's really easy.
Nick Pearson:So it's definitely about when you're in a management position
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: so much
Nick Pearson:you're taking staff.
Nick Pearson:that maybe have come out of university and know a bit about their area of
Nick Pearson:expertise, but don't know yet how the NHS works or how communications
Nick Pearson:necessarily works in the real world.
Nick Pearson:And taking somebody from that through to the, You know, I'm lucky
Nick Pearson:enough to be in the NHS for a long time, taking them from that to a
Nick Pearson:kind of finished, polished product.
Nick Pearson:There's nothing I mean, that's my pride.
Nick Pearson:I feel so proud about that.
Nick Pearson:It's brilliant.
Nick Pearson:I've got two kids, but you feel You do feel like they're your children and, and
Nick Pearson:you, I don't know whether they feel that, but I certainly feel it, that you've
Nick Pearson:looked after them, you've put all your, you've nurtured them, you've done whatever
Nick Pearson:you can to give them promotion if they're, you know, if they're really good and
Nick Pearson:they show those qualities, and there's nothing like that, and I've been lucky
Nick Pearson:enough to have that with lots of people.
Nick Pearson:And I recently, yeah, as I said, we recently had a leave in due
Nick Pearson:and those people were nameless.
Nick Pearson:I'm not going to name them, but they were there and it was lovely
Nick Pearson:and it made me really proud.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: And that's the sign of a brilliant leader, isn't it?
Nick Pearson:Somebody who actually takes the time to develop and encourage and nurture
Nick Pearson:people to be the best version of themselves, whatever that might look
Nick Pearson:like, is to me, like, that's the dream as a leader to be able to do that.
Nick Pearson:And, like you, brings me joy.
Nick Pearson:Joy when you can see people to develop and if you think you've played even
Nick Pearson:the tiniest part in in doing that for somebody and supporting them
Nick Pearson:in their career journey that does feel really rewarding so it's lovely
Nick Pearson:Yeah, the interest,
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: had that experience too.
Nick Pearson:yeah, the interesting thing about that, I get, because
Nick Pearson:we hear that a lot, don't we, Carrie, that, that, that's really
Nick Pearson:rewarding and it is really rewarding.
Nick Pearson:Why is it really rewarding?
Nick Pearson:I don't know, actually.
Nick Pearson:I don't know why it's so rewarding.
Nick Pearson:So that's probably worth thinking about I might think about why it's so rewarding
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Quite often.
Nick Pearson:In my NHS comms career, I've helped people get jobs other places because I
Nick Pearson:haven't had the ability to give them that promotion and get them that next level.
Nick Pearson:And that feels counterintuitive when you're the comms director in your
Nick Pearson:organization going, we've got this really brilliant person, but because
Nick Pearson:of finances or circumstance, whatever, you know, I don't want to hold them
Nick Pearson:back from taking their next steps.
Nick Pearson:I'm going to help them get a job somewhere
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: on the one hand, that feels like, Oh, that's
Nick Pearson:a bit of a weird thing to do.
Nick Pearson:Cause you.
Nick Pearson:You want to keep that talent for yourself, but on the other hand it's so rewarding
Nick Pearson:to watch someone fly and, go on to achieve the great things that they're
Nick Pearson:able to achieve, but you're right, I'm not really sure why it makes you so happy.
Nick Pearson:i've done this as well Which is where i've seen something
Nick Pearson:in somebody and they don't have Perhaps they have a lot of confidence
Nick Pearson:or they just haven't had a break.
Nick Pearson:I think that's what it is.
Nick Pearson:They didn't have the break.
Nick Pearson:So they, they maybe not necessarily come from the usual comms
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: center, yeah.
Nick Pearson:Yeah.
Nick Pearson:you.
Nick Pearson:And actually in sort of 90 percent of the cases where they didn't have
Nick Pearson:any background in communications, but you could just see that
Nick Pearson:they were going to be great.
Nick Pearson:And that's worked.
Nick Pearson:And that's, that's a brilliant thing.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: That is a brilliant thing and it's so lovely and so humble
Nick Pearson:of you that your success that you want to talk about is actually the success
Nick Pearson:of other people and the small part that hopefully you've played in that.
Nick Pearson:So now to, to the nitty gritty of it, before we wind up our conversation, I
Nick Pearson:wondered if you from all the experience that you've got, had any advice that
Nick Pearson:you would give to listeners who are aspiring comms directors or, leaders
Nick Pearson:for the future in terms of what you've learned yourself through your career?
Nick Pearson:I can tell the best advice I ever, ever received.
Nick Pearson:And this is probably quite personal, but it was, and it's
Nick Pearson:really simple to slow down.
Nick Pearson:So I think when I first came into the NHS, , I was kind of quite
Nick Pearson:I was doing stuff all the time.
Nick Pearson:I was, you know I was just so much to do, got to get it done, that all the
Nick Pearson:rest of it, which is all very well.
Nick Pearson:You know, you deliver and you do all the rest of it.
Nick Pearson:But when you get to a senior place, a chief executive said to me slow down, you
Nick Pearson:know, how it was very useful, very useful.
Nick Pearson:How am I going to take you seriously?
Nick Pearson:If you're rushing about everywhere and you're just, you've just got two
Nick Pearson:minutes, you know and then you've got to get on and do something else.
Nick Pearson:I want somebody who's calm and considered and is prepared to, you know, spend
Nick Pearson:time to, to talk me through the issues.
Nick Pearson:And, and that was a bit of a revelation for me.
Nick Pearson:I kind of thought, oh yeah, okay, yeah.
Nick Pearson:And I slowed down and and I calmed down and I, and that's
Nick Pearson:quite easy to do incidentally.
Nick Pearson:You, you have
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: it?
Nick Pearson:I'm intrigued to know, is it
Nick Pearson:yeah, it was actually.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: not?
Nick Pearson:Well, I'm really I've had a lot of coaching over the years and I'm
Nick Pearson:really into that kind of mindset stuff
Nick Pearson:what it does mean is you've got to push a lot of the operational stuff
Nick Pearson:just a bit further into the team and not have quite so much to do with it.
Nick Pearson:Which is always, you know, we always worry about that.
Nick Pearson:Don't we?
Nick Pearson:So it's about losing the control and losing the worry over the control about
Nick Pearson:it, which itself is a great thing to do in terms of empowering other people.
Nick Pearson:And then another manager said to me, When everybody else loses their
Nick Pearson:heads when you're in a crisis, you've got to be the only, you've
Nick Pearson:got to be the cool head in the room.
Nick Pearson:You've got to take control and, I've done that on occasion and
Nick Pearson:that's yeah, I've done that on occasion and that's, that's, yeah.
Nick Pearson:That's an interesting thing as well because suddenly when you calm down
Nick Pearson:other people go Oh, yeah, and they start to listen to you if you're all up there
Nick Pearson:with them and they're panicking you're panicking You're not used to anybody.
Nick Pearson:So that that's the best advice I'd receive but but from my from giving
Nick Pearson:advice and I definitely think about getting a coach or a mentor quite
Nick Pearson:early on in your career if you can.
Nick Pearson:And
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Okay.
Nick Pearson:Okay.
Nick Pearson:Okay.
Nick Pearson:Okay.
Nick Pearson:different for other people, just walking in people's
Nick Pearson:shoes, mindset, all of that stuff.
Nick Pearson:If you're Company if your organization will pay for that more the better,
Nick Pearson:and the last one I would say is think about the ethics of the situation you're
Nick Pearson:going to and where you stand in relation to that issue because in your career,
Nick Pearson:you may be asked to do, you may be to do things that you wouldn't necessarily
Nick Pearson:that might cross a line for you.
Nick Pearson:So you need those red lines and you need to really, really think, I mean,
Nick Pearson:I've always tried to treat people how I would want to be treated, I suppose.
Nick Pearson:So, so be decent
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: I don't
Nick Pearson:don't cross your red lines.
Nick Pearson:If you have to try it, you don't have to make a stand when you, when you, you
Nick Pearson:know, you, there's other ways to do it unless you want to make a stand, but it's
Nick Pearson:not always the best way to do things, but you can do it quietly and you can
Nick Pearson:do it with, grace but yeah be decent.
Nick Pearson:Is the kind of is the last one I would say.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: I love that last piece of advice is just brilliant because
Nick Pearson:I've had numerous conversations over the years about how your role as a
Nick Pearson:communications leader is often to be the sort of conscience of the organization
Nick Pearson:and holding that mirror up maybe sometimes when it's uncomfortable for other people
Nick Pearson:to have that mirror held up, but that that's a really important part of being.
Nick Pearson:A leader in the field around communication.
Nick Pearson:So that bit about knowing your own red lines takes us right back, I think, to
Nick Pearson:almost the start of our conversation, Nick, about how I was perceiving your
Nick Pearson:professional integrity and your values and how important they are to you and
Nick Pearson:actually holding on to those all the way through your career, is really important
Nick Pearson:and actually even more important if you're in that role in your organization
Nick Pearson:where it's your job sometimes to go.
Nick Pearson:Can I just say the consequence of us doing this might be X, Y, and Z, because
Nick Pearson:I have that insight, because I'm your communications director, and it's my
Nick Pearson:job to have that insight and be able to have that conversation with you, which
Nick Pearson:like you say can feel challenging, but it's really important to be able to
Nick Pearson:Oh my god I mean, yeah, it can can be challenging covers a
Nick Pearson:whole lot I mean, it's it's it's so difficult to do that and you need When
Nick Pearson:you're the potentially the you know There's maybe one or two of you that
Nick Pearson:feel like this or even it's just you're just on your own and you you you're
Nick Pearson:putting across a You perspective on something that nobody wants to hear.
Nick Pearson:And when that, you don't want to do that too often, by the way, but when you
Nick Pearson:have to do it, because you, you know, I talked about that, you don't really
Nick Pearson:want to make a stand, but sometimes you have to make a stand, because
Nick Pearson:it's just not the right thing to do.
Nick Pearson:That is really challenging that, and that's where you
Nick Pearson:have to know your red lines.
Nick Pearson:You have to be Really clear with people about where you stand and then
Nick Pearson:and then you just have to say, well, that's, you know, that's my advice.
Nick Pearson:But don't expect to get promoted on the back of it.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: So thank you, Nick.
Nick Pearson:Oh, that's brilliant.
Nick Pearson:Thank you.
Nick Pearson:I could talk to you for the rest of the afternoon, but I'm conscious that
Nick Pearson:a, you probably need to sleep because you had your your late party election
Nick Pearson:party stuff going on last night and also our listeners are probably ready
Nick Pearson:to go and do whatever it is they're going to do next having listened to
Nick Pearson:this conversation but I just want to say a huge thank you for having this
Nick Pearson:conversation as part of the podcast Nick.
Nick Pearson:Huge luck for, not that you'll need it, but for Pearson and Pearson which
Nick Pearson:I know will go on to do amazing things.
Nick Pearson:If people want to get in touch with you either because something you've said
Nick Pearson:is Has resonated or even better because they might have some business for you.
Nick Pearson:What's the best way for them to get in touch with you, Nick?
Nick Pearson:Just I'm sorry.
Nick Pearson:Thank you, Carrie.
Nick Pearson:That is an absolute pleasure to do that.
Nick Pearson:It was lovely.
Nick Pearson:It felt like it was all, it was a bit like desert island discs.
Nick Pearson:So it was, it was very nice for me to do that.
Nick Pearson:Yeah, you can get me via LinkedIn.
Nick Pearson:So put in Nick Pearson and you'll soon get to me,
Nick Pearson:. Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you so much for your time, Nick.
Nick Pearson:It's much appreciated.
Nick Pearson:I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Nick Pearson:I know our listeners will have too.
Nick Pearson:Thank you very much.
Nick Pearson:Carrie-Ann Wade: Thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.
Nick Pearson:I'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform
Nick Pearson:and leave a rating or a review.
Nick Pearson:You can also engage with me over on the socials.
Nick Pearson:I'm on Insta and X at @catspjs_uk of course you can find me over on LinkedIn.
Nick Pearson:Hope to catch up with you soon.
