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Episode 2

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Published on:

19th Jul 2023

Behind the Bob - the one with Lisa Ward

This is the first of Carrie-Ann's conversations with public sector comms pros focused on how to encourage diversity within the profession and make a career in public sector communications attractive to new talent.

In this episode Carrie-Ann talks with Lisa Ward, a former NHS communications director, about her career so far, challenges she has faced and her thoughts on diversity in communications.

10:46 - storytelling and communications

15:58 - returning to communications from maternity leave

20:29 - menopause in the workplace

30:06 - apprenticeships as a route into communications

46:57 - reaching different communities to recruit

Thank you Lisa for sharing your own journey and experiences to inspire others who are looking to take the next steps in their communications career.

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New episodes of Behind the Bob are published every Wednesday and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.

You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Transcript
Carrie-Ann Wade:

Welcome to Behind the Bob Diary, the comms

Carrie-Ann Wade:

director with me, Carrie Ann Wade.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

Carrie-Ann Wade:

be a special guest or tea popping up.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I hope you enjoy.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of Behind the Bob, and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

it is one of our special episodes where there is a guest, so you don't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

just have to listen to me talking.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

We've got a fabulous communicator here with us in the guise of Lisa Ward.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

How are you?

Lisa Ward:

I'm very good.

Lisa Ward:

Thank you Carrie Ann, and I'm feeling really honored to be part of your new

Lisa Ward:

series, so it's lovely to be here.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

here.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Oh, thank you so much for being here.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you and I have known each other a fair few years now from

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the NHS communications world.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'll let you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about maybe who you are,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

what you are up to at the moment, and perhaps you could tell us a little bit,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Lisa, about your comms career to date.

Lisa Ward:

Thank you.

Lisa Ward:

So I'm Lisa Ward.

Lisa Ward:

I have been in public sector communications for, gosh, this

Lisa Ward:

is going to give away my age.

Lisa Ward:

About 28 years now.

Lisa Ward:

Yes, it is coming out for 28 years in September.

Lisa Ward:

So I started off in cancer research campaign as well.

Lisa Ward:

So I started off in charity comms, actually by accident.

Lisa Ward:

With thanks to my mum.

Lisa Ward:

Actually.

Lisa Ward:

She was helping look for a job.

Lisa Ward:

She spotted this job in PR week, I think it was for a press assistant.

Lisa Ward:

And the rest is history.

Lisa Ward:

So I ended up in a charity, loved it, and then spent some time at

Lisa Ward:

Health Educational Authority.

Lisa Ward:

So worked on the skin cancer campaign.

Lisa Ward:

So there's a lot of stuff around slip, slap, slop, I

Lisa Ward:

dunno if people remember that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Good campaign.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I do.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So that might be giving my age away as well.

Lisa Ward:

I had the opportunity to do, go around the country and do a

Lisa Ward:

little kind of education and work with other communicators in terms

Lisa Ward:

of helping them to spread the word.

Lisa Ward:

And then I had a bit of a brief foray out into the private sector because I was

Lisa Ward:

in my sort of mid twenties and thought I wonder what it's like in an agency, cause

Lisa Ward:

I knew people had gone into agencies.

Lisa Ward:

I didn't last that long.

Lisa Ward:

I was there about 18 months.

Lisa Ward:

Worked with the pharmaceutical industry.

Lisa Ward:

But it was a really interesting kind of diversion outta the

Lisa Ward:

public sector for a little while.

Lisa Ward:

But I knew I wanted to get back into it because I think it does suck you in.

Lisa Ward:

I also think one of the big things for me is the people in public

Lisa Ward:

communications, and I think that's what always draws me back is.

Lisa Ward:

Like yourself.

Lisa Ward:

And there's, I've got such an amazing network of friends and colleagues

Lisa Ward:

I've worked with over the years and who I'm very much in touch with and,

Lisa Ward:

we'll still have all those kind of helpful conversations about what

Lisa Ward:

to do about particular issues and it's such a supportive community.

Lisa Ward:

And that in terms of, why should you choose public sector communications?

Lisa Ward:

That would be my number one, is I think it is a really great community

Lisa Ward:

in terms of embracing everybody and.

Lisa Ward:

Sharing.

Lisa Ward:

There isn't this sort of, no, I'm not gonna share this information.

Lisa Ward:

I'm not going to share my ideas.

Lisa Ward:

It's absolutely not like that.

Lisa Ward:

I went into government, so worked at the Department of Health for seven

Lisa Ward:

or eight years, which was fantastic.

Lisa Ward:

Real highlights.

Lisa Ward:

Worked with some amazing cabinet secretaries.

Lisa Ward:

Worked on some amazing stuff.

Lisa Ward:

Worked on the Victoria Columbia inquiry, some really big white paperwork.

Lisa Ward:

Probably made some of my closest communications friends there, because I

Lisa Ward:

think when you are working in such a fast paced political environment where who

Lisa Ward:

knows what's going to happen from one day to the next, you get become quite tight.

Lisa Ward:

So that was that was a really great experience and I had the opportunity

Lisa Ward:

to work at number 10 while I was there.

Lisa Ward:

And again, that really gives you that insight as to.

Lisa Ward:

How everyone fits into that big picture and what, happens at the top of the

Lisa Ward:

tree, so that was really good experience.

Lisa Ward:

And then I ventured into the N H S and joined the role Surry as their first ever

Lisa Ward:

head of communications and marketing.

Lisa Ward:

They didn't, they've never had anything.

Lisa Ward:

This was in 2008.

Lisa Ward:

So I had left my.

Lisa Ward:

Very nice job at the Department of Health encouraged by some really great people.

Lisa Ward:

Particularly want to shout out to Matt Tee who I'm sure some of you have heard of.

Lisa Ward:

He really encouraged me to broaden my horizons and go for that bigger job in the

Lisa Ward:

N H s and I'm really grateful that he did.

Lisa Ward:

But I turned up, the chief exec PA had just been answering the

Lisa Ward:

phone to the press on and off.

Lisa Ward:

That was it.

Lisa Ward:

That was all they had.

Lisa Ward:

So I turned up, I had a desk, no computer, no phone.

Lisa Ward:

They didn't really know what to do with me and I remember spending

Lisa Ward:

the first week thinking, do I phone my old boss and ask to go back?

Lisa Ward:

Because it just felt really hard.

Lisa Ward:

And then I just got into the swing of it, started to make the connections with the

Lisa Ward:

people out in other NHS organizations and Spent five years there having established

Lisa Ward:

a proper comm and marketing function, which has gone from strength to strength.

Lisa Ward:

So that's one of the things I'm really proud of because it's

Lisa Ward:

not the easiest thing to do.

Lisa Ward:

I had two very small children at the time as well, so I was much

Lisa Ward:

younger, so I think that helped.

Lisa Ward:

That was a huge thing.

Lisa Ward:

And then that kind of set me off really on that NHS journey and did another.

Lisa Ward:

Head of comms job at Kingston, which is my local hospital.

Lisa Ward:

It's where my children were born.

Lisa Ward:

So that was quite nice to have that local connection with the organization as well.

Lisa Ward:

It's an organization my family uses.

Lisa Ward:

So that was great in terms of really feeling part of that organization.

Lisa Ward:

I had a real vested interest in it being successful, which I think is, not that

Lisa Ward:

I haven't in all my other organizations, but I think when it's part of your

Lisa Ward:

community, it's really important.

Lisa Ward:

And then as Carrie, on where we did quite a lot of work together as NHS providers

Lisa Ward:

as head of communications, and I think one of the most rewarding bits about

Lisa Ward:

that was first of all, bringing that comms network together and really helping

Lisa Ward:

that to fly and connecting people up.

Lisa Ward:

And giving that kind of advice to colleagues because there is always

Lisa Ward:

something that's going on somewhere in the country and it's just helpful

Lisa Ward:

for, I think for them to sometimes have someone who's not totally in

Lisa Ward:

the thick of it to just have that conversation about, what would you do?

Lisa Ward:

And then also putting, connecting people with others as well, who they

Lisa Ward:

may not have been connected with.

Lisa Ward:

And that's another thing I really like is that connections that you can make and.

Lisa Ward:

Thinking I know somebody could really help you with that.

Lisa Ward:

Putting them in touch with the right person.

Lisa Ward:

And then I think the pandemic again, was hugely rewarding

Lisa Ward:

because we were thrown into it.

Lisa Ward:

It felt quite quickly.

Lisa Ward:

I'm sure it did for you.

Lisa Ward:

And I just think we, that opportunity to.

Lisa Ward:

Just be that little bit of support, bit of care for the colleagues across the nhs,

Lisa Ward:

be the voice of the NHS as well, cuz it was very difficult, as for NHS trust and

Lisa Ward:

NHS leaders to go off and say what they wanted to say about what they were doing.

Lisa Ward:

So I think we're able to just offer that role of speaking for our

Lisa Ward:

colleagues, staying in touch with you throughout, keeping people connected,

Lisa Ward:

and I hope helping people to keep going because it was really tough.

Lisa Ward:

And interestingly, that was the thing that made me want to go back into a trust.

Lisa Ward:

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, but I missed that being on the front line.

Lisa Ward:

That was when I moved to Portsmouth, which was my last role.

Lisa Ward:

But now I have, I've got a big birthday next year.

Lisa Ward:

So I'm got to that point in life where thinking about what does

Lisa Ward:

the next 10 to 15 years look like.

Lisa Ward:

I spent nearly 30 years doing, Permanent roles and working my way up.

Lisa Ward:

And so I'm now looking to explore maybe something a bit different,

Lisa Ward:

maybe do a bit of freelancing and just see what else is out there.

Lisa Ward:

Because I think you get to a point in that midpoint in your life where you

Lisa Ward:

just think, okay what else can I do?

Lisa Ward:

What else can I offer to people?

Lisa Ward:

How can I consolidate what I've done?

Lisa Ward:

So that's where I am now.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And how exciting for you to be moving into that space

Carrie-Ann Wade:

lisa, and so much of what you said is really resonated with me and I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade:

still chuckling about the chief execs PA being the press office because I

Carrie-Ann Wade:

think early in our careers in the nhs, that seemed to be the model for comms.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you are right that kind of progressing.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

That.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So actually really building com a communications function and bringing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that expertise into an organization is a really rewarding part of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

working in our field, I think.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But it did just make me chuckle cause I'm like, I've had that experience too.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So yeah, that was making me laugh a little bit there.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But there was a f firstly, I will say as well, a huge thank you to you in your role

Carrie-Ann Wade:

at NHS providers, because actually what I loved about you being in that space,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Lisa, is because you had that experience from being in a provider organization.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think you had that added bit of expertise and kind of sense of what.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Other NHS comms leads were going through in that provider space and you?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

As are the team at NHS Providers, a real advocate for developing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

our profession, which is something I'm really passionate about.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think com coms can easily be seen as the kind of add-on

Carrie-Ann Wade:

or the fluffy Nice to have.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it's lovely to work with other comms professionals who.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Absolutely see the strategic value of communications and advocate for that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

A thank you from me and other provider comms leads, I'm sure for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the impact that you had in that space.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you've talked a bit about the public sector sucking you in.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it sounds a lot from what you've said, like what's attracted

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you to the roles you had.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Is there something for me that you've said about connections and.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Having an impact I think for people seeing that you're having an impact.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Was there anything else that attracted you to working in that public sector

Carrie-Ann Wade:

kind of space or has it literally just been the way that your career's taken

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you right from that first charity sector role then a natural progression.

Lisa Ward:

I think it's probably a bit of both.

Lisa Ward:

I think there was a natural progression, but I very quickly when I was at cancer

Lisa Ward:

research campaign, the thing that I really loved, so I trained as a journalist,

Lisa Ward:

so I've always loved the storytelling.

Lisa Ward:

And also the kind of human interest side of press and communications.

Lisa Ward:

So I think.

Lisa Ward:

Being a cancer research campaign, a lot of it was around telling the story

Lisa Ward:

because obviously you, your whole point was to try and get more funds

Lisa Ward:

in and get support for the charity.

Lisa Ward:

But I really loved working with the scientists who were doing amazing stuff

Lisa Ward:

to find new kind of breakthroughs and treatments for cancer care and then

Lisa Ward:

meeting those patients and families who have been directly impacted.

Lisa Ward:

I really got sucked into that storytelling and also being able to

Lisa Ward:

just directly meet people who were benefiting from what we were doing.

Lisa Ward:

I suppose back in the office in Central London where we were sit,

Lisa Ward:

sitting and seeing, the difference it was making and also hearing why

Lisa Ward:

people wanted to support the charity.

Lisa Ward:

So that was a really big thing for me is being able to do that.

Lisa Ward:

And then obviously I've always liked to seek out those stories.

Lisa Ward:

And even when I was in government, one of the roles I did, one of

Lisa Ward:

my last roles there was chief Press Officer for the regions.

Lisa Ward:

So this is where I really started to get to know the n h s better.

Lisa Ward:

So I'd worked really closely with colleagues across the country.

Lisa Ward:

I went around the country with Patricia Hewitt, who was the then health secretary.

Lisa Ward:

And so a big part of that was finding those.

Lisa Ward:

Stories looking for where we could go and see what's the kind of government policy

Lisa Ward:

and how it was actually working in real life and how it was affecting patients in

Lisa Ward:

real life and staff as well particularly.

Lisa Ward:

And one of the things she did a lot of actually was then, and this is where it

Lisa Ward:

introduced me to that importance of the engagement of your colleagues and getting

Lisa Ward:

them on board and making sure you are listening colleagues as she did a lot of.

Lisa Ward:

Round tables with a group of staff from various organizations, and

Lisa Ward:

I really saw the impact that had.

Lisa Ward:

So again, they were able to tell their stories, they felt safe to tell them,

Lisa Ward:

and it really helped to inform her kind of decision making in terms of what we

Lisa Ward:

needed to be focusing on as a department.

Lisa Ward:

And then obviously the NHS is full of that, isn't, it's full of the

Lisa Ward:

stories and and I just love them.

Lisa Ward:

Making those relationships and engaging with a variety of people.

Lisa Ward:

And in all of my, particularly my NHS roles, I've always made

Lisa Ward:

sure I've had connections in the organizations at all sorts of levels.

Lisa Ward:

In all sorts of roles.

Lisa Ward:

And you've known me a long time, Carrie and I will pretty much talk

Lisa Ward:

to anyone, I'll talk about anything.

Lisa Ward:

And I just used to like the opportunity to go out and about.

Lisa Ward:

And just find out what it was felt like out there.

Lisa Ward:

And then out of that you'd end up finding out something really amazing and they'd

Lisa Ward:

mentioned, oh, we have this really interesting patient and I think they'd

Lisa Ward:

be happy to tell their story and stuff.

Lisa Ward:

And so it was, it's that stuff that I think is really great.

Lisa Ward:

And that's obviously transferable into all sorts of public sector arenas.

Lisa Ward:

It's that getting to know the people that you are actually looking

Lisa Ward:

after, providing services to.

Lisa Ward:

The staff who are doing that and you know that there are the most incredible

Lisa Ward:

staff stories as well, aren't there?

Lisa Ward:

That you all hear just their journeys in terms of how they've got to where they

Lisa Ward:

are and why they've, they're passionate about particular thing that they do.

Lisa Ward:

And so again, I think that's, if you like storytelling, if you like to

Lisa Ward:

be able to see what your small role in that organization can do and the

Lisa Ward:

direct impact it has on people's lives, I think again, that's a.

Lisa Ward:

Great reason to think about the public sector because you, if

Lisa Ward:

you want it, you'll have that opportunity in spades, I would say.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you, Lisa.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think, yeah, the public sector offers the chance.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I feel like communicators are naturally.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

People, if that makes sense.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I would just definitely describe you as a people person.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And that's seeing that impact for other people I think is a really

Carrie-Ann Wade:

important part of why we do what we do.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I think that's a really great example of that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I'm gonna move us into a slightly different space in the conversation now.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Cause we've talked about lots of the positives and it has been really

Carrie-Ann Wade:

great to hear about your kind of career journey as a communicator.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I was intrigued to know whether.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You've experienced any barriers or blockers in your communications career to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

date that you'd be happy to share with us?

Lisa Ward:

So I think it wasn't a bit of a barrier, but I would say this

Lisa Ward:

is when I first felt I experienced a little bit of discrimination, but

Lisa Ward:

interestingly from other colleagues, not necessarily my, I suppose my boss

Lisa Ward:

at the time, so when I was at Department of Health, I had my first child, I was

Lisa Ward:

a chief press officer and it was not something that many people had done.

Lisa Ward:

Was go on maternity leave.

Lisa Ward:

It's quite a young profession and it's busy.

Lisa Ward:

It can be around the clock.

Lisa Ward:

And so I went through a whole pregnancy.

Lisa Ward:

I did a lot of going around the country with John Reed while I was

Lisa Ward:

quite heavily pregnant as well, and went off on maternity leave, came

Lisa Ward:

back sort of six, seven months later.

Lisa Ward:

Full term, full time.

Lisa Ward:

And it was quite and I needed to get back to work.

Lisa Ward:

I knew I'd always want to work once I'd had children.

Lisa Ward:

And so I used to share all the childcare in terms of the nursery

Lisa Ward:

pickups and drop-offs with my husband, Tim, really good that he had a

Lisa Ward:

very supportive employer as well.

Lisa Ward:

So I would be going in very early on the days where I had to leave

Lisa Ward:

earlier to go to nursery, and then obviously I would stay later if I'd.

Lisa Ward:

Dropped Xavier off at nursery, but there were definitely a few comments about,

Lisa Ward:

oh, you're leaving already, are you?

Lisa Ward:

And whereas I would've been in the office probably two hours before most

Lisa Ward:

people, cuz I knew I had to leave early.

Lisa Ward:

And then a few things around, oh, you might not be able to do

Lisa Ward:

that because you've got a baby.

Lisa Ward:

Not much, but I proved everybody wrong, I think.

Lisa Ward:

And there was a bit of, oh, is Lisa up to it?

Lisa Ward:

She used to be really good and interestingly, really tragic event, but

Lisa Ward:

it helped me to get back into the groove was the seven, seven bombings was about

Lisa Ward:

five weeks after I went back to work.

Lisa Ward:

And I think I probably was not floundering, but just finding it

Lisa Ward:

hard to get my mojo back because.

Lisa Ward:

When you've got a six months old baby and you are trying to work in a busy

Lisa Ward:

government press office, it's quite a lot.

Lisa Ward:

And my brilliant boss, John Hibbs, who is now an NHS communicator,

Lisa Ward:

he's an he's a director in the nhs.

Lisa Ward:

He said to me you're in charge today.

Lisa Ward:

You're in charge.

Lisa Ward:

You're gonna deal with all the stuff.

Lisa Ward:

You'll have to go to Cobra and you'll have to set up a kind of, press

Lisa Ward:

briefing just so we can explain, what the NHS is doing in response.

Lisa Ward:

Best thing he ever did.

Lisa Ward:

And I think it was after that I proved to people that you could do it.

Lisa Ward:

And I've had people since say to me, you were an absolute trailblazer

Lisa Ward:

because we hadn't seen many people like you have a baby come back

Lisa Ward:

full-time and just get on with it.

Lisa Ward:

And there's been a number of female, younger female colleagues since you said,

Lisa Ward:

you inspired me that I could do that too.

Lisa Ward:

And although at the time it felt hard and I felt a little bit like an outsider,

Lisa Ward:

oh, that's the one with the baby.

Lisa Ward:

I'm glad that it helped others to feel that yes, I can do that too.

Lisa Ward:

So I think that was The first one and I think one of the barriers

Lisa Ward:

would say would be my own barrier.

Lisa Ward:

So I am a people person and I give the kind of I suppose I am fairly confident,

Lisa Ward:

but I think sometimes my lack of faith in myself and thinking, oh, I can't

Lisa Ward:

do that, maybe has stopped me going for certain things over the years.

Lisa Ward:

It's that classic, I hate it.

Lisa Ward:

Imposter syndrome.

Lisa Ward:

You look at a job, think I can't do all of that, so I won't bother.

Lisa Ward:

And I think sometimes not always having the confidence to say what I

Lisa Ward:

really think, trying to hone the line.

Lisa Ward:

So I think sometimes that's put my own barriers in place.

Lisa Ward:

I've, as I'm on a bit of a, as I said, I'm, I've had a bit of a break.

Lisa Ward:

I've had a bit of a think, and I think it's about thinking about how I.

Lisa Ward:

To make sure I'm being really authentic in whatever role I do next.

Lisa Ward:

And then I think also, again one of the reasons I have taken a bit of a

Lisa Ward:

step back is that I'm going to talk about the menopause a little bit.

Lisa Ward:

I hope that doesn't put people off.

Lisa Ward:

Cause I know there's a lot of stuff around the menopause.

Lisa Ward:

But I think, again, one of the things, I think all organizations.

Lisa Ward:

Need to get better at.

Lisa Ward:

And I think it is getting better.

Lisa Ward:

I was talking to a, an older colleague the other week who's 10

Lisa Ward:

years ahead and she said, when I went through it, nobody talked about it.

Lisa Ward:

It was not mentioned and you wouldn't be able to mention it.

Lisa Ward:

And so at least now it is talked about, there is a lot more awareness than

Lisa Ward:

organizations, but, I did feel, that it was difficult to manage everything

Lisa Ward:

while going through some quite difficult menopause symptoms and periods of time.

Lisa Ward:

So I think again, it's not necessarily a barrier, but I think sometimes you have

Lisa Ward:

to evaluate what you can do, how you can look after yourself, and I've been

Lisa Ward:

very fortunate that I've been able to take that step back, make the decision.

Lisa Ward:

To do something a bit different and make sure that I'm as well as I can be.

Lisa Ward:

So I think I'd like to see more of that support for, cuz everyone will go

Lisa Ward:

through it, and particularly the NHS is a massively female or organization

Lisa Ward:

I hope that just gets better and better in terms of understanding that.

Lisa Ward:

It isn't just about hot flushes and it isn't just about stopping

Lisa Ward:

your periods, it's about it impacts so much more than that.

Lisa Ward:

And I'd like to see that there is increasing awareness and support for

Lisa Ward:

women going through that because, it might just be a few little adjustments

Lisa Ward:

that are needed in terms of the flexibility and that side of it.

Lisa Ward:

And so I think, I am seeing it get better.

Lisa Ward:

And I just hope that continues cuz I wouldn't want people to

Lisa Ward:

think that they couldn't be doing, the big senior jobs or any job,

Lisa Ward:

while going through the menopause.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I, I think you've raised some really interesting

Carrie-Ann Wade:

points and a lot resonate with me.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I would say my own personal experience of the menopause has been one

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of the most challenging things for me.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Like you say, it's not always about the obvious things, hot flushes periods,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

but actually I just lose my words.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I can't.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And as a communicator that feels really disempowering.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I, to the point where I'm having to try and describe the word.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Like the other day I was like, can you pass me the the cutty things

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with the plastic handles on the end?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it's like scissors.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's yes, scissors.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But it's literally flown from my brain and it's, it is really nerve wracking I find.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And

Lisa Ward:

it is.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah.

Lisa Ward:

And I think for me the anxiety was the probably the worst bit, which

Lisa Ward:

I'd never really suffered with before.

Lisa Ward:

Quite overwhelming.

Lisa Ward:

And like you say, just that ability to remember things,

Lisa Ward:

it does mess with your brain.

Lisa Ward:

And so I think, it's just people having more awareness that it's

Lisa Ward:

such a broad thing, isn't it?

Lisa Ward:

Menopause.

Lisa Ward:

I think there's something like, 37 symptoms aren't there

Lisa Ward:

now that they've identified.

Lisa Ward:

And I did feel at one point I had pretty much all of them, but yeah, so I think

Lisa Ward:

it it's good that it's been taught about a lot more and I do feel for those women

Lisa Ward:

who behind us, went through quite a lot and suffered a lot by themselves, I think.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And you, I think you've started to touch on it a bit in terms of what.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

What we might be able to do to try and reduce some of those

Carrie-Ann Wade:

challenges for other people going forward and around the menopause.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I definitely think it's about that educational piece, more understanding,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

thinking about what employers can do to support women to stay in the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

workplace, whether that's a small adjustment or maybe a bigger one.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Just being able to do that and it's the other end of.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

The spectrum in some respects.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I guess it's the same around the maternity piece that

Lisa Ward:

yes.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you know what, what is it that we can be doing to make

Carrie-Ann Wade:

it easier for really good expert communications professionals and others.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

My interest is in comms people, but isn't just about communicators.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

How can we keep these really good people in our organizations and our

Carrie-Ann Wade:

workplaces and make it easy for them?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

To experience what their experience, whether that's through

Carrie-Ann Wade:

motherhood or menopause, but also be able to do their jobs as well.

Lisa Ward:

Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Ward:

And I think it's also around supporting fathers to do that as well because I

Lisa Ward:

think sometimes that's even harder is for our male colleagues to be able to

Lisa Ward:

put their hands up and say, actually I need to have some flexibility

Lisa Ward:

as well because I'm caring for my children cuz they are my children.

Lisa Ward:

So I think I've always made sure, and I think because of results of.

Lisa Ward:

Feeling like I was one of the first to do what I did in the organization I was

Lisa Ward:

in has been very understanding and and supportive of that need for flexibility.

Lisa Ward:

Cuz for me, I've never really watched the clock.

Lisa Ward:

I don't really look at how many hours somebody does for me.

Lisa Ward:

It's around that deliverable.

Lisa Ward:

Are they doing what we need them to do in that role?

Lisa Ward:

And are they happy?

Lisa Ward:

Are they supported?

Lisa Ward:

Are they thriving?

Lisa Ward:

A and not necessarily.

Lisa Ward:

Wow.

Lisa Ward:

I think they might have left half an hour early.

Lisa Ward:

It, I think that's rubbish.

Lisa Ward:

I think it's very outdated.

Lisa Ward:

I just think we need to be a lot more flexible in terms of, the hours

Lisa Ward:

people work and how they might work.

Lisa Ward:

I understand there's always going to be, need to be in certain meetings

Lisa Ward:

in certain times of day, I get that.

Lisa Ward:

But I do think there is.

Lisa Ward:

More we can do, and not just around childcare or other

Lisa Ward:

caring responsibilities.

Lisa Ward:

I think it's also around supporting people's mental

Lisa Ward:

health and their wellbeing.

Lisa Ward:

So if it helps them to have a two hour break in the day to go and

Lisa Ward:

do some exercise or do something different and that energizes them

Lisa Ward:

and they come back, and they're able to smash out the afternoon.

Lisa Ward:

Brilliant.

Lisa Ward:

Absolutely happy to support that.

Lisa Ward:

I think.

Lisa Ward:

I think there's.

Lisa Ward:

We need to trust that people, if you give them that flexibility

Lisa Ward:

and you give them that care and support, you'll get more outta them.

Lisa Ward:

That's absolutely what I've seen.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it's refreshing to hear that because I don't think we hear that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

enough from leaders in organizations.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I also think if I think about the role that communicators play

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in their organizations, I think communicators are immensely flexible and.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

My experience of comms professionals is they always go above and beyond.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

The pandemic that you mentioned earlier is an excellent example of that, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Like people, out of hours, support, crisis management, all of that stuff

Carrie-Ann Wade:

where communicators give a lot to their organization in terms of not

Carrie-Ann Wade:

only time, but energy and expertise.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So actually, To be able to give that back, to help somebody to manage what's going

Carrie-Ann Wade:

on in their life feels really important.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I ha I hope people listening to this who are aspiring comms

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leaders or are already comms leaders have the same outlook as you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Cuz I think that is really healthy.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I know we've talked previously in conversations, Lisa, about, you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

can't look after everyone else if you are not looking after yourself.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And that's an important part of it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I still feel.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

There is this culture of having to ask permission to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

look after your own wellbeing.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And we need to crack that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So yeah, I'm, I people need to be more Lisa is what I'm getting

Carrie-Ann Wade:

from that co that conversation.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So

Lisa Ward:

Thank you.

Lisa Ward:

I was very kind.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you for sharing.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Are you a communications professional who would like to feel more

Carrie-Ann Wade:

confident in your career choices?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Perhaps you'd like to be more intentional in the way you approach your work life?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Our Cats Pajamas Thrive program is a 12 week structured online

Carrie-Ann Wade:

program that supports communications professionals to grow and thrive.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's a safe space for discussion, action, and accountability, or with

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the aim of helping you to thrive as a communicator and as a leader.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

The next Thrive program starts on the 1st of September, and if you'd like to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

find out more or reserve your place on the program, visit the website, catch up

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with us on the socials, or drop us a line.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm just going you've talked a bit about this already, I think in terms of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

some of the highlights of your career so far, particularly around some of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the campaigns that you've supported.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But what ha what have for you have been the standout moments in your comms career?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Cuz we've talked about some of the challenges, but I never like for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

it all to be about the difficult.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Stuff.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I like to celebrate success as well.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So what have been some of your standout moments in your career, Lisa?

Lisa Ward:

so I would definitely come back to Royal Surey.

Lisa Ward:

So going, coming from nothing to building up a team.

Lisa Ward:

Bringing in comms and marketing, setting a strategy for the organization

Lisa Ward:

and getting buy-in from many people across the organization, and

Lisa Ward:

particularly some of the clinicians.

Lisa Ward:

So I made it my business to go out and meet as many as possible.

Lisa Ward:

Go back to that storytelling piece, just to understand,

Lisa Ward:

what made raw story stand out?

Lisa Ward:

What should we be telling people about it?

Lisa Ward:

And.

Lisa Ward:

I think one of the greatest things is I had a very tricky conversation

Lisa Ward:

with one of the consultants who didn't really understand the point of me.

Lisa Ward:

This was when I hadn't been there very long, and then only six months

Lisa Ward:

later he came back to me, apologized and asked me to help him design

Lisa Ward:

his website pages and there was a small thing, but I felt that, by.

Lisa Ward:

Putting that effort in.

Lisa Ward:

And also, but by showing the organization that things were different,

Lisa Ward:

they felt different for a start.

Lisa Ward:

They had regular communications out to the organization, cuz they were hearing

Lisa Ward:

about what was happening from the local papers or occasionally, something might go

Lisa Ward:

out from the chief executive, but people felt that they were part of something

Lisa Ward:

and they were, they had more, they had that advance notice on other people.

Lisa Ward:

And then not long after that, we did that.

Lisa Ward:

Remember the days where people applied to be foundation trusts?

Lisa Ward:

So three month public consultation.

Lisa Ward:

So that was done.

Lisa Ward:

I'd only been in the org less than a year.

Lisa Ward:

So around this big consultation, we were successful.

Lisa Ward:

And that feeling of, I, I played a really big part of that, spent a lot of time.

Lisa Ward:

In deepest winter, in very cold church halls in Surrey and Hampshire.

Lisa Ward:

Explaining to people and it was always quite hard to explain to people, why

Lisa Ward:

do we want to be a foundation trust?

Lisa Ward:

And then helping to set up that first stuff for Council of Governors.

Lisa Ward:

So that stuff was very different to what I'd done before in government, but

Lisa Ward:

really rewarding because we'd started, as I said, I started with a desk and.

Lisa Ward:

Ended up with this proper function, a lovely big office for us all.

Lisa Ward:

It was it was great.

Lisa Ward:

So I'd say that was a definite highlight.

Lisa Ward:

And then just going back to government, just being able to work on some of the

Lisa Ward:

kind of major campaigns and major kind of policy announcements that we did.

Lisa Ward:

So one of the first things I did was work on Victoria Columbia inquiry.

Lisa Ward:

So Victoria, Columbia, you may remember, but for those that don't, was a little

Lisa Ward:

girl who was murdered by her relatives.

Lisa Ward:

After sustaining a lot of abuse, it was a very long running inquiry and

Lisa Ward:

so very new to government, had the honor of being given this really

Lisa Ward:

big piece of work to put together.

Lisa Ward:

And, pulled together a really, a report was pulled together.

Lisa Ward:

We did a lot of work with the media, a lot of work with stakeholders.

Lisa Ward:

And so again, although, I think the one that thing that does sadden me

Lisa Ward:

is that we have seen a lot more of those types of cases since then.

Lisa Ward:

However, at the time it was quite groundbreaking.

Lisa Ward:

It was one of those first.

Lisa Ward:

Major inquiries into why did this happen, what needs to change.

Lisa Ward:

And I do hope eventually more will change, but again, it was a,

Lisa Ward:

real privilege to work on that.

Lisa Ward:

And then I think also just my most recent role, that was

Lisa Ward:

my first board director role.

Lisa Ward:

So being able to have that seat at the table as a communications

Lisa Ward:

and engagement professional.

Lisa Ward:

It is a huge honor.

Lisa Ward:

I've obviously attended board and sat on the sidelines and contributed when

Lisa Ward:

asked, but it was a huge privilege to be sat around the table with the board

Lisa Ward:

of the organization and to have my voice heard and to be able to contribute

Lisa Ward:

to that wider strategic operational direction of the organization and have

Lisa Ward:

that wider impact and also, Just show that how important it's to have comms and

Lisa Ward:

engagement around that table because it is that slightly different voice to others.

Lisa Ward:

Sometimes I think we do think a bit differently and we're always thinking

Lisa Ward:

about how will that affect the people at the other end of it, have we thought about

Lisa Ward:

how we might tell the patients about this?

Lisa Ward:

And also looking for the positives a lot.

Lisa Ward:

We're always.

Lisa Ward:

I think generally quite a positive bunch of people because we'd want, we

Lisa Ward:

know we're in it to spread the good news and try and find those, that

Lisa Ward:

sort of chinks of light sometimes in, particularly in the nhs, which it's

Lisa Ward:

tough, it is tough at the moment and it's been a tough four years, hasn't it?

Lisa Ward:

Even before the pandemic, it wasn't a bed of roses.

Lisa Ward:

And I think it's just it's a hard old organization to be in and.

Lisa Ward:

I think what I've always been happy to do, and particularly in my last role,

Lisa Ward:

was bring a bit of joy, and put on things like a really lovely award ceremony and

Lisa Ward:

bring staff together and just, so we did something called Appreciation April,

Lisa Ward:

just to kick off the new financial year, and that was really around looking back

Lisa Ward:

and celebrating what we had achieved and then involving the organization

Lisa Ward:

in looking forward and asking them.

Lisa Ward:

How might we deliver what we need to deliver this year?

Lisa Ward:

What do you think we need to do?

Lisa Ward:

What needs to change?

Lisa Ward:

And what can you do to help do that?

Lisa Ward:

And then as part of that, we had something called Proud to be P H U.

Lisa Ward:

And so again, it's just getting people to think about what are those

Lisa Ward:

things that do make them proud?

Lisa Ward:

And it can be really small, but I think it's important that, we do that.

Lisa Ward:

And I think being an exec and having the opportunity to Do that and be that

Lisa Ward:

kind of role model for people is great.

Lisa Ward:

And I think also to be, to show other communicators that you

Lisa Ward:

can end up round the table.

Lisa Ward:

It's not necessarily an easy journey.

Lisa Ward:

And I think as we've all experienced, many people think they are

Lisa Ward:

communications professionals.

Lisa Ward:

And I think it's about just making sure you show what the added value

Lisa Ward:

is and that actually those years of experience and those years of.

Lisa Ward:

Having to use your judgment and just all that experience of dealing with

Lisa Ward:

many different situations just does make you stand out from everyone else.

Lisa Ward:

And so I hope people can see that they can have that, an amazing career

Lisa Ward:

from starting right at the bottom.

Lisa Ward:

My first ever of job, I basically had to, this the days before the

Lisa Ward:

internet guys where we had physical newspapers to cut out all the national

Lisa Ward:

newspapers, every single story.

Lisa Ward:

Related to cancer or the organization, stick them on bits of paper and

Lisa Ward:

photocopy them 20 times and then physically walk them around the building.

Lisa Ward:

I think you start from there.

Lisa Ward:

But then I've also never forgotten.

Lisa Ward:

That's what I've done.

Lisa Ward:

So I'm still quite happy to stuff an envelope or walk around

Lisa Ward:

and deliver stuff if I need to.

Lisa Ward:

I think that's another important thing to remember as well, is that however far

Lisa Ward:

you making up the greasy pole, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty still.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

oh, I think that's excellent advice.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think all the examples that you've given there is

Carrie-Ann Wade:

highlights of your own career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Just really demonstrate the breadth of opportunity and what you can get involved

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in as a communicator in your career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think that's, Definitely one of the things that I've loved is that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

variety, like genuinely, no two days are ever the same when you work in NHS

Carrie-Ann Wade:

communications or I guess any other sphere of comms, particularly in the public

Carrie-Ann Wade:

sector though I think because as you've highlighted, we are in such a spotlight

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in terms of the media and sometimes I think others can perceive us looking

Carrie-Ann Wade:

for those good news stories as bit.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Oh, that's a nice to have.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I think actually, I.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

The role of doing that is so important in reminding people why we do what

Carrie-Ann Wade:

we do and what we are here for, because we can so easily be sucked

Carrie-Ann Wade:

into some of the negativity and the difficulty and the challenge

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of working in the NHS or the public sector that we can be a bit, blinded

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to actually what are we all here for?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Our profession plays a huge role in demonstrating what we are here for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in terms of the people that we serve.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I think you've given some really brilliant examples and it's been

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a privilege for me to hear more about your career highlights to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

date and the ones that I don't know about pre nhs, which is lovely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

One of the things that we talk about a lot and the reason that I wanted

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to hear about your highlights was, Because I think in our profession we

Carrie-Ann Wade:

sometimes struggle to encourage people to see it as a career option of choice.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So whether that's NHS comms specifically or the broader public

Carrie-Ann Wade:

sector comms, I'm never sure it feels quite so exciting or glossy or dare

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I use the word sexy as working as a communicator in a different sector.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think one of the other things that we struggle with in our

Carrie-Ann Wade:

profession is that diversity and.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I just wondered from your point of view, why should communicators consider

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a career in public sector comms, but also what can we do to encourage more

Carrie-Ann Wade:

diversity in this space and in this field?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Do you have any thoughts?

Lisa Ward:

So I think on the diversity front, sadly, I think my experience,

Lisa Ward:

early experience of being in public sector comms is it was a certain mold of person.

Lisa Ward:

Who was in it.

Lisa Ward:

There wasn't a huge amount of diversity and although I'm university

Lisa Ward:

educated and everybody I worked with was, I don't think that's

Lisa Ward:

necessarily something you need at all.

Lisa Ward:

I'm increasingly, I think having two teenagers who, I'm seeing that there

Lisa Ward:

are so many other route to getting what you need out of your life, and

Lisa Ward:

one of the things I did at Kingston actually is took on an apprentice.

Lisa Ward:

They hadn't had a communications apprentice before.

Lisa Ward:

They'd had apprentices in various other parts of the organization, but I asked

Lisa Ward:

for one, and I can remember going along to talk to these very scared looking 16

Lisa Ward:

year olds about why they should join the communications team as an apprentice and.

Lisa Ward:

Trying to sell it to them as the, no two days are the same.

Lisa Ward:

You can do anything from working with the media, updating the social

Lisa Ward:

media, designing a website doing some internal communications,

Lisa Ward:

getting to do a bit of graphic design, potentially, writing stories.

Lisa Ward:

Putting on events and then there'll be other things that are thrown at you

Lisa Ward:

that you did not expect to do that day.

Lisa Ward:

And just as an aside, I can always remember the funniest phone call I had

Lisa Ward:

when I was at Royal Surry is that there were some ducks who had set up a nest

Lisa Ward:

in the middle of one of the courtyards, and did I know what to do about it?

Lisa Ward:

And I remember thinking, really not sure why that's, and we

Lisa Ward:

didn't know who else to ring.

Lisa Ward:

And it's that classic.

Lisa Ward:

So we rang communications.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

we're the problem solvers, aren't we?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Lisa, if we've got a problem, come to comms, they'll work out how to solve it,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

even if it's not a communications thing.

Lisa Ward:

Yeah, so that was just an aside, but I think, so we ended,

Lisa Ward:

I ended up with this amazing girl called Meg, who joined our team at 16.

Lisa Ward:

She was, wouldn't say boot to Goose probably for the first month or so.

Lisa Ward:

And then I had a really brilliant cons manager, Holly, who trained her up, worked

Lisa Ward:

really closely with her, and within six months she was like a different person.

Lisa Ward:

She was going out into the organization, taking photographs, asking people

Lisa Ward:

questions, helping to start right things, we, we sent her on a number of

Lisa Ward:

training courses and really got her.

Lisa Ward:

Trained up and she'd left school with not a huge amount of qualifications

Lisa Ward:

at 16 and was really struggling to work out what she was going to do.

Lisa Ward:

And I just, we just saw something in her.

Lisa Ward:

She wanted to do it.

Lisa Ward:

And I'm just trying to think now, how many years later is it?

Lisa Ward:

It must be eight years later now.

Lisa Ward:

Yeah, eight, nine years.

Lisa Ward:

She's still in communications.

Lisa Ward:

She's still in HS.

Lisa Ward:

Communications.

Lisa Ward:

She has worked her way up.

Lisa Ward:

And that's from, coming into our office all those years ago

Lisa Ward:

and looking a bit frightened.

Lisa Ward:

And the best thing is, and I've still got this, her mum emailed me six

Lisa Ward:

months in and just, and it made me cry.

Lisa Ward:

And it still makes me feel quite emotional now.

Lisa Ward:

When she said you have changed her life.

Lisa Ward:

I've, I have a completely different child, you've given us, you've given her a reason

Lisa Ward:

to get up in the morning and she loves it.

Lisa Ward:

So I just wanna say thank you and.

Lisa Ward:

It's that thing, that sort of thing.

Lisa Ward:

That is why I do what I do.

Lisa Ward:

Because she wa on paper you'd go, gosh, she can't work in

Lisa Ward:

communications, but she can.

Lisa Ward:

And I think this is the thing is you've just got to give people a chance and

Lisa Ward:

you've got to take the time to just work with them and figure out what they need.

Lisa Ward:

Because I think.

Lisa Ward:

Anyone can do it.

Lisa Ward:

I don't, you don't need a degree, you don't need a master's.

Lisa Ward:

I know I probably shouldn't be saying this because I know there's lots of

Lisa Ward:

people who do all of that, but if you wanna come in and start, at the

Lisa Ward:

bottom, you can still make your way up.

Lisa Ward:

You can still have an amazing career in communications.

Lisa Ward:

Sorry I'm How much you got A little to now?

Lisa Ward:

Cuz

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Me too.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Stop it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm like, oh, gonna cry now.

Lisa Ward:

It's just one of those real highlights for me.

Lisa Ward:

The other thing I did at, with Adam when we were at providers

Lisa Ward:

is we started the comms trainee.

Lisa Ward:

So this was really inspired by Ranjit, who we both know really well, who's

Lisa Ward:

done a huge amount, I think, in terms of that, in increasing diversity.

Lisa Ward:

He's a real role model for that as well, in terms of, look, you can do this.

Lisa Ward:

And so we bought in our own first of comms trainee.

Lisa Ward:

And again, it is just brilliant because, so many of the jobs say you need one

Lisa Ward:

to two years experience or a degree or a master's, and it's so it's just

Lisa Ward:

taking a chance on someone who hasn't done a day's work in communications,

Lisa Ward:

but has the drive to drive and it's just investing a bit of your time.

Lisa Ward:

And I have to say, and that's what puts people off.

Lisa Ward:

Oh.

Lisa Ward:

Time and we'll have to sit with them and train them and stuff.

Lisa Ward:

But you know what, the reward is huge.

Lisa Ward:

And I think it's the same with, I've always encouraged work experience as

Lisa Ward:

well, because people won't know what it's like unless you give them the chance.

Lisa Ward:

And there are always those little gems.

Lisa Ward:

And I think in terms of the diversity, I think it is around us trying to

Lisa Ward:

work out how we do reach out to those communities and those people who

Lisa Ward:

might not think that they can do it.

Lisa Ward:

And.

Lisa Ward:

Making sure that we have the right role models.

Lisa Ward:

So telling, Meg's story, I was an apprentice and we did tell her story.

Lisa Ward:

And there was an apprentice at Portsmouth who ended up winning

Lisa Ward:

Apprentice of the Year, because of just what she'd managed to achieve.

Lisa Ward:

So I think we've just gotta make sure we are telling those stories so that people

Lisa Ward:

see people like them and go, oh, okay.

Lisa Ward:

That's a similar background to me.

Lisa Ward:

I could do that.

Lisa Ward:

So that, I don't have loads of pearls of wisdom, but I think it's,

Lisa Ward:

you just gotta put a bit of effort in, but the reward's massive.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I was getting emotional when you were telling

Lisa Ward:

I know.

Lisa Ward:

I know.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about Meg yeah, it's and it's really powerful, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's that taking a chance, giving opportunities to people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I love what you said about sh showing people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

There's, there are different routes into this.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You don't have to go down a traditional route.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I, myself, I do have a degree now, but I didn't when I started my

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Career at all, and actually I I think I'd had three jobs in NHS comms before

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I decided that I wanted to do a degree.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And that wasn't for my career progression.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

That was something that I wanted to achieve for me, and I did my degree

Carrie-Ann Wade:

whilst I worked full-time in NHS comms.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you absolutely don't have to have that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm coming in ready formed, ready made with all the academic side of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

things and quite often I feel like a lot of recruitment into teams that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I've built has been about people having the right attitude, the right

Carrie-Ann Wade:

values, the desire, and you can teach the techie stuff, can't you?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I think,

Lisa Ward:

you can, and I always have a really good feeling about

Lisa Ward:

most of the people have had a really good feeling about almost

Lisa Ward:

five minutes into meeting them.

Lisa Ward:

Have turned out to, to be absolutely the right people.

Lisa Ward:

Doesn't always work, but I'd say probably 90% of the time,

Lisa Ward:

you get that feeling, don't you?

Lisa Ward:

That, they have got the right attitude.

Lisa Ward:

Their values are good.

Lisa Ward:

And actually, I think all the other thing with comms, it's you are tight as

Lisa Ward:

a team and you've gotta think about will they work with the rest of the team?

Lisa Ward:

That is such an important thing.

Lisa Ward:

And again, I think it's important to.

Lisa Ward:

Potentially let them meet the team before they start as well, as part of that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

One of the brilliant things while we're on recruitment

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and we're giving shout outs to some amazing comms people, by the way, so

Carrie-Ann Wade:

yes, big up Ranjit for everything that he does and genuinely role modeling

Carrie-Ann Wade:

everything that he talks about, but also.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

We're talking about recruitment.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Jack Adlam, who is one of the comms directors now at an acute trust he

Carrie-Ann Wade:

shares interview questions before interviews with people, which I just love.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I don't know why we don't do that as a standard.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So if people are feeling anxious or get a bit overwhelmed, they've already

Carrie-Ann Wade:

had an opportunity to have a bit of prep time in a way that's useful.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Cuz often it can be overwhelming preparing for an interview, can't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Cuz you don't actually know.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

What's gonna come at you, what examples you might want to have ready.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And in that situation, particularly if you've not had a lot of interviews,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you're early on in your career, I think you can do the, oh my mind's gone

Carrie-Ann Wade:

blank, or I would, my mind would go blank with menopause issues to be fair.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So actually that's a lie that it's about being early in your career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But but I think, having that ability to just.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

See that before you go in, I think might actually be something that could

Carrie-Ann Wade:

help people with that confidence and self belief that we've also talked

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about in this conversation, Lisa.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I love people just doing things a bit

Lisa Ward:

yes, and I think that's really important because I, I think you, in

Lisa Ward:

interview shouldn't be an interrogation.

Lisa Ward:

You're not sitting an exam.

Lisa Ward:

And I always think it's more it's equally about they're

Lisa Ward:

interviewing you, because it's a big decision to join an organization.

Lisa Ward:

So it is a two-way street.

Lisa Ward:

And so I hope, I try and make people feel as comfortable as

Lisa Ward:

possible and I like to think.

Lisa Ward:

I'm having a really good conversation rather than, grilling somebody and

Lisa Ward:

feeling like they've gotta live up to some sort of expectation.

Lisa Ward:

It should be just a really healthy conversation.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I could talk to you all day, Lisa, but I know you've probably got other things

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that you'd like to do with your day.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm gonna try and wrap us up if I can, and just say on that kind of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

topic of considering a co comms career in the public sector and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

supporting some of that diversity.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Aspect that we've talked about.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Is there one practical step out, some of the things that you've shared

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that listeners could take today to encourage more diversity and different

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people into a career in public sector?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Comms

Lisa Ward:

I think as managers and leaders, it is around.

Lisa Ward:

for opportunities to reach out to different parts of your community.

Lisa Ward:

So for example, if you're offered the chance to get an apprentice,

Lisa Ward:

take it and make that work.

Lisa Ward:

There's also things like the project choice as well, which

Lisa Ward:

is helping people who have, particular neurodiversity issues.

Lisa Ward:

And so I'm speaking of somebody as the mother of a child who's got a

Lisa Ward:

D H D, I would like to think that.

Lisa Ward:

He is given opportunities as well.

Lisa Ward:

So I think again, it's about taking those opportunities, also trying to

Lisa Ward:

reach out to, particular parts of your community, posting about what you do,

Lisa Ward:

posting about things that might attract someone who's thinking that's not for me.

Lisa Ward:

And trying to give them examples of how it can be for them.

Lisa Ward:

So I think we, we have a responsibility as people who've

Lisa Ward:

had, very successful careers.

Lisa Ward:

To, and I heard a great phrase a few years ago, throw that ladder back down, and

Lisa Ward:

throw it back down to as wide a net as possible, so that we are encouraging those

Lisa Ward:

people who may not have smashed out the park in their GCSEs and their A levels.

Lisa Ward:

But I've got so much to give and, can be a massive asset to, or, to our teams and

Lisa Ward:

lots of different organizations and have, potentially a lot of lived experience that

Lisa Ward:

they can really bring to the organization.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Said, Lisa, and as you talked about throwing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that ladder back down, I had.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Visions of it being one of those big rope kind of net things that you see

Carrie-Ann Wade:

on assault courses where loads of people can climb up at the same time.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So it's not just one little narrow ladder, it's that big kind of rope

Carrie-Ann Wade:

wall that everybody can scramble up.

Lisa Ward:

I

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you for putting that image in my head and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

thank you for reminding me about my responsibility to do just that as

Carrie-Ann Wade:

well as a leader in our profession.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I've had an absolute blast talking to you, Lisa.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you for sharing so much.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And you know what I've loved about this conversation is I

Carrie-Ann Wade:

think it represents what we do as professionals, cuz we've touched on.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Successes, really great stuff.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Highlights, we've talked about some challenges as well, and the breadth

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of the conversation in such a short space of time, I hope, has been really

Carrie-Ann Wade:

insightful for people listening.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you so much for being part of the podcast series behind the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Bob, and good luck with whatever adventure comes next for you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

While you're working that out, I'm gonna keep my beady eye on it to know

Carrie-Ann Wade:

what you are up to next, Lisa and maybe we'll be inviting you back at some

Carrie-Ann Wade:

point to talk about what's next for you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you so much for being part of the podcast.

Lisa Ward:

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Lisa Ward:

I've had a, I've had a really great time and it's just been nice to

Lisa Ward:

reflect and talk about something I'm really passionate about.

Lisa Ward:

I'm hugely passionate about what we do.

Lisa Ward:

I think it is an absolutely brilliant profession and there are so many

Lisa Ward:

different things you can do.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love

Lisa Ward:

thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'm gonna leave it there.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'll leave that dangling for everybody.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you so much, Lisa.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I've really appreciated it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Take care.

Lisa Ward:

thank you.

Lisa Ward:

And you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'd love for you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform

Carrie-Ann Wade:

leave a rating or review.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You can also engage with me on the socials.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Find me on Instagram and Twitter @catspjs_ uk catch up soon.

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About the Podcast

Behind the Bob
Diary of a Comms Director
Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with me, Carrie-Ann Wade.

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career. You’ll hear from me about my experiences and insights and there might even be a special guest or two popping up.

Behind the Bob gives you a sneak peek into life as a comms director and provides you with all the "behind the scenes" knowledge to help you thrive as a communications leader.


About your host

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Carrie-Ann Wade

Carrie-Ann Wade is a communications director in the NHS with over 20 years of communications and marketing experience. She is also founder of Cat’s Pajamas Communications which focuses on mentoring communications professionals to grow and thrive in their careers.

She has most recently been a finalist in the inaugural Comms Hero Fearless Trailblazer award and shortlisted in the National Facilitation Awards 2023. She was named one of F:entrepreneur's #ialso100 2020 top female entrepreneurs and business leaders, and Cat’s Pajamas has been recognised in Small Business Saturday's UK #SmallBiz100, as a business with impact.

She is one part of the How to Take the Lead collaborative, and cohost of a podcast with the same name, exploring the challenges and opportunities of modern day leadership. Carrie-Ann also hosts ‘Behind The Bob, Diary of a Comms Director’, a podcast supporting aspiring communications leaders.

Find out more via www.cats-pajamas.co.uk