Behind the Bob - the one with Shak Rafiq

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:03

Welcome to Behind the Bob Diary of a Comms

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:06

Director with me, Carrie Ann Wade.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:08

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:11

future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

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You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:19

be a special guest or two popping up.

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So I hope you enjoy.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:28

Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Behind the Bob, and you will

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:33

be very happy to hear this is another one of those episodes with a special guest

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popping up to have a conversation with.

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And I'm really delighted that this conversation is with the fabulous Shak

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:43

Rafiq so Shak, welcome to the podcast.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:00:46

I will let you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you

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before we get into the conversation.

Shak Rafiq: 00:00:52

Thank you.

Shak Rafiq: 00:00:53

Carrie-Ann and thank you for giving me the opportunity to

Shak Rafiq: 00:00:55

be part of this podcast series.

Shak Rafiq: 00:00:56

Hello, my name is Shak and I'm the associate Director for communications

Shak Rafiq: 00:01:00

and involvement for Bradford District and Craven Health and Care Partnership,

Shak Rafiq: 00:01:04

which is our fantastic place based partnership within the Fantastic West

Shak Rafiq: 00:01:07

Yorkshire integrated care system.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:09

I can, vouch for the fact that it's fantastic because I was

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:12

lucky enough to be invited to visit you up in Bradford a week or so ago.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:16

And, you have a fabulous team and Bradford is definitely a brilliant place to be.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:20

So I'm hoping that I get a return visit at some point.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:23

Shak, but.

Shak Rafiq: 00:01:24

Most definitely Carrie-Ann and be very welcome to to visit us again.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:28

thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:28

And we've known each other for a little while now through the

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NHS communications community.

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And I think we've done webinars and various other things together.

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So this won't be the first of these sorts of conversations that we've had,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:40

but it's perhaps the first that we've recorded in this I'm really interested

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:44

and I did get a sneak preview Last week when I met up with you about where you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:48

started out in your communications career.

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But it would be really nice to hear from you a little bit about your

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:54

career as a comms professional so far.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:01:56

So could you enlighten us on your journey?

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:00

Absolutely Carrie-Ann I think this is the hardest thing to do, isn't it?

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:02

To talk about yourself.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:03

I think it's worth saying.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:04

I've been in the NHS 15 years now.

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So it almost feels like that's been my life for a while.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:10

But prior to that I've worked in the community and voluntary

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:13

sector for a university.

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So my first job was at Oxford Brooks University.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:17

And I've done a public relations degree throughout that time.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:20

I've worked in some fantastic teams with some fantastic managers and some

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:24

fantastic leaders that have given me the chance to grow and learn lots of skills.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:28

I feel now I've got that.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:31

Technical experience in all the things you'd expect at this

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level when you of leadership in communications and involvement.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:38

So I'm not going to talk about what I've done because I just find that

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:41

really embarrassing a little bit.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:42

But it

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:02:44

cringy, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:02:44

We're not good at communicators at talking about ourselves doing our own pr.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:48

No.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:48

So I'm really sorry.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:49

I dunno how to summarize, but I've just had a I feel fantastically lucky and

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:52

privileged to have excelled in my career with the support, some brilliant people.

Shak Rafiq: 00:02:57

And I know through this conversation we'll talk about some of the barriers

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:00

that maybe I've come up against.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:02

And I've either realized consciously at the time or on reflection, realize

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:07

this is probably what, maybe stunted that progress which it feels like

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:12

it's accelerated more recently.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:14

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:15

You've said you started in, a university comms role and you

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:18

obviously have got your 15 in the NHS.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:20

Before we move on, what did attract you to work in public sector communications?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:03:25

Was it a conscious choice or something that just naturally happened for you Shak?

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:30

It was a conscious choice.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:32

I've always been, I would say values and community led.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:36

And actually going, reflecting back on my career, I say that, but

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:39

I was actually going to do law, which is probably the complete

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:42

opposite of what I've just said now.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:44

However I fell into public relations and did a public relations degree.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:48

And then I decided once I'd done my degree and realized this is

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:52

the field I'm wanting to work in.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:54

It was clear then actually law would've been the wrong choice.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:58

I would've regretted it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:03:59

Because I would've been working probably with a commercial mindset.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:03

And whilst I was doing my degree, I did two placements, and one was at

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:06

the West Yorkshire Police and one was at the National Media Museum.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:10

Both in their own right.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:11

Public bodies people not profit first.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:15

And from there on in it, it was clear that I wanted to be in, in the public sector.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:19

Interestingly enough though, carry on.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:21

I didn't know, believe it or not, that you could get a communications role

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:24

within the n hs until I applied for my first role within the nhss, only because

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:29

I'd been working at this community development organization and we held

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:32

a session on health inequalities.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:34

And lo and behold, in this room, there's, and there were one or two people who

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:38

worked in communications in the nhs and I thought, That's interesting.

Shak Rafiq: 00:04:41

I'm going to have a look to see if there's any opportunities.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:45

Isn't that interesting?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:47

And there's a bit of me that thinks, I guess why would people a viable

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:49

kind of career choice for them?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:51

And I'm sure we'll talk about it a bit later, but I'm really glad that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:54

found out that comms in the NHS was a thing because we've been lucky to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:04:58

have you in that for those 15 years.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:00

But it sounds like very much values driven and like you not about the commercial

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:04

stuff, not profit first, but people first is what's kept you in the public

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:08

Yeah.

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:09

Although, Carrie-Ann I must say, for the wider communications field I do

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:12

understand the contribution and the value that all sectors bring to society.

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:18

And when we talk about inequalities and inequalities, one of the most important

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:21

things is lifting people out of.

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:24

Poverty and issues related to socioeconomic progress.

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:28

So I, I recognize the valuable contribution that businesses make,

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:32

so it's more of a conscious decision for me not to work in that field.

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:35

But that's not to say it, it doesn't have a significant

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:38

contribution to society as a whole.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:40

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:41

Thank you, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:42

So you mentioned it briefly when we started this conversation, but one of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:45

the things I was interested in is whether or not you have felt that there has

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:49

been anything that's been a barrier or a challenge for you in your career to date.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:05:53

And if you could talk a little bit about that, if that's the case.

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:57

Yeah, so there's probably an ongoing barrier

Shak Rafiq: 00:05:58

that I would say all of us.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:00

Would relate to, and that's imposter syndrome.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:03

Am I really supposed to be in this room?

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:05

Do I really know what I'm talking about?

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:08

Are my ideas the right ones?

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:10

Will they be heard?

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:11

I speak clearly with a very broad Yorkshire accent.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:14

I'm not, I haven't been minded to change it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:17

I

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:17

know.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:06:18

Good on

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:18

Exactly.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:19

Exactly.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:20

And I know the background I come from and I'm really proud of that.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:22

But sometimes you feel, is that going to hold me back?

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:25

In certain environments I don't have those.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:27

But I suppose through my career, I've developed those networks, but I've

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:30

not had them immediately to rely on.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:32

So I think that really I don't know, there's a psychological block sometimes

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:37

from an imposter syndrome perspective.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:39

And then I think early on in my career great managers, as I've said,

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:44

but me, myself have probably not been brave enough to speak as often.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:49

I know people will be very surprised when they hear that I

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:51

don't speak loudly or often I do.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:52

But maybe there's opportunities where I've not done so.

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:55

And it was a really useful piece of advice that I got from a former chief

Shak Rafiq: 00:06:59

executive who I had the privilege of working under and she, made it really

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:03

clear that there's times where she knows there's a contribution that.

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:07

It's waiting to come from me, but it doesn't arrive because for

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:09

whatever reason, you don't want to share it out of the fear of getting

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:13

it wrong or making a mistake.

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:14

So that again, takes you back into imposter syndrome and

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:18

the worry of making a mistake.

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:19

And now I'm not as worried about making mistakes.

Shak Rafiq: 00:07:23

In fact, I love making them because it gives me something to learn from.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:26

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:26

And you know what?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:27

It's really refreshing and I will say this, to hear a man talk about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:31

imposter syndrome because quite a lot of the conversations that I have around

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:35

self-belief and confidence and all linked that kind of sense of an imposter syndrome

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:39

of sorts generally tend to be with women.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:42

And I think it's something that is seen as a label that is put onto women who

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:46

are not confident in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:48

So actually it's.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:48

It is really refreshing refreshing, and quite insightful, I think to from as a man

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:53

Shak, that imposter syndrome is something that you conscious of and has, have,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:57

has perhaps affected you in your career.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:07:59

Definitely thank you for sharing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:01

And I absolutely, from what you've said, have so many conversations

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:05

with communications professionals who don't think they have.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:08

The same right as someone else to be in the room and that they don't have an equal

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:12

Yeah, it seems to be something that's quite prevalent in our profession and I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:15

not sure what we address some of that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:17

Maybe it comes with age and experience and I dunno if I say wisdom, I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:21

not sure how wise I am, but that you just, in the end, I'm just

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:25

gonna say it and share my opinion.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:27

But there are things I think that hold you back from doing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:08:29

And it seems to be something that communicators say a lot.

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:33

Most definitely.

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:33

And I think Carrie-Ann that's a great point around others who will have

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:37

similar experiences because societally, whilst we think we've made significant

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:43

progress if I talk about protective characteristics and how far we've

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:46

progressed, actually we've been in some instances small baby step, but with a

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:51

lot of gesture politics around them.

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:53

And that's my worry.

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:54

So how do we make sure those who feel like this.

Shak Rafiq: 00:08:59

Are brought into plain view so others can understand what proper allyship means.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:04

And it goes beyond saying the right things.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:06

It's doing the right thing.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:07

So I think the point you make is a really good one.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:10

Carrie-Ann if I may, the other thing that really helped me, and I never

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:14

used to fully understand the reasons why you would develop certain.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:19

Developmental programs for certain cohorts.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:22

I never really fully understood it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:24

I used to think it was wrong for whatever reason, but then I went on a

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:27

leadership course called Stepping Up, and I was done by the leadership Academy

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:31

and it was specifically for people from ethnically diverse backgrounds.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:35

And then when I went on that course, I recognized and lived

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:39

to the experiences of others and immediately it resonated with me.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:43

Maybe not to some of the extremes I was listening or felt in one sense.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:47

Happy that I didn't quite have those extremities.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:49

But at the same time, I felt sad for the people that did.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:52

But once I went on that course, for me there was two things.

Shak Rafiq: 00:09:56

One I don't want to be sort having that same conversation

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:00

with myself in a year's time.

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:02

Slot yourself out on what you gonna do about it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:03

And secondly how are you gonna work with others to make sure they recognize you

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:08

are now on a journey and you don't want to carry on doing great tactical work, but.

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:14

Then always continuing to be at that level.

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:16

So I went to break probably what I felt was a glass ceiling and whether or not

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:21

there was I'm not sure, and I wouldn't want anyone to think I, I feel there was,

Shak Rafiq: 00:10:25

but just internally it felt like one.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:28

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:30

And I think it brings us onto that bit of the conversation I wanted to have

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:33

around the kind of how we can start to reduce some of the barriers that people

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:39

might recognize that you've described and might be experiencing in their careers.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:43

And also I guess a bit whose role is it to do some of that?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:47

And I love what I'm hearing from you, Shak, is that quite a lot of it for

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:50

you, it feels like it's your role to do some of that and role model it and.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:54

Talk about and communicate and educate others about your own experience in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:10:58

the hope that it helps other people.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:00

But yeah, I would be interested to know in terms of those barriers, whether

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:03

perceived or real around the glass ceiling and some of that imposter syndrome stuff.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:08

Like what can we be doing challenge some of that and improve

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:11

things for other communicators.

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:14

I think that point you make about.

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:16

How do we break through that cross scene and some of the barriers?

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:19

I think the other thing to remember is whilst you're a role model or a

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:23

perceived role model and Carrie-Ann you, you are one of those people I

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:26

admire so much in terms of what you do and how much I learn from you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:30

Oh, right back at you, but thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:32

I'll take that

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:33

and there's others who I could easily mention on on, on this podcast.

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:36

And I'm careful not to because I'll probably miss someone

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:38

and they'll think, why?

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:39

why

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:11:39

And they'll, how rude, why didn't you say me?

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:41

But I think when you're in that position as a role

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:45

model, that creates a separate pressure in its own right.

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:47

Because I'm here to represent me.

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:50

I can't represent a whole community, whatever community

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:52

you want to think I'm from.

Shak Rafiq: 00:11:53

And also, and the expectation is, You will somehow be the only one that

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:01

drags other people into this space.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:03

No.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:03

We have to work on it together.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:04

So that's something I would say first and foremost, in terms of

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:07

breaking down those barriers.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:08

And I think if we think about those forums and networks and meeting environments

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:15

where those decisions are made.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:17

How willing are we to accept new ideas and new ways of thinking?

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:21

And if I think about a different form of diversity neurodivergent thinking.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:26

So creativity in our industry is really important.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:30

Why do we always hey, hire people that may look, sound, think like

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:36

us and not think broader than that?

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:38

And then in a meeting setting, if someone's expressing an idea, maybe

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:42

not in the same way you would.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:44

Listen to it first, understand where they're coming from and understand that

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:47

they bring a lived experience with it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:50

Usually that will give you the insight into a community, but they're not the

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:55

sole representative of that community.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:56

But it just gives you an opportunity to challenge your thinking.

Shak Rafiq: 00:12:59

And I would say mentorships amazing.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:02

I've had some.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:03

Brilliant mentors.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:04

In fact, I will mention three because I, I think I have to

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:08

one's Jane Westmoreland and Leeds.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:11

Just an amazing communicator and just an amazing person who has always

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:14

given me time when I've needed it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:16

Ranjeet Kaile, who you'll know really well, again, Dito always.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:21

Therefore me my current mentor is John Holden, who retires soon, and I just

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:24

wanted to give him a shout out to say in the last sort of year, 18 months.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:30

Hi.

Shak Rafiq: 00:13:30

His guidance has been immense.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:33

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:33

Oh, thank you for the shout.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:34

Shout And I think I'm gonna have to invite Ranjit onto the podcast because

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:37

this is the second episode I've recorded where Ranjeet's had a shout

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:40

out for something different in the last episode, but I think that says something

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:44

about the impact that he's having.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:46

Particularly in this space the profession and communications

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:49

in the NHS in particular.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:50

But I think it's actually really important, and I know we joke saying

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:54

you can't shout out everybody cuz for fear that you'll miss someone

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:57

and then they'll be offended.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:13:58

But I think that opportunity to express gratitude and thank people and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:03

actually give people that name check sometimes is really important because

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:06

I don't think people often realize how much of an impact they have.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:10

On others in terms of their development and their growth and supporting them.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:13

So it's really nice to be able to do I think it was a good call

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:16

to give them the shout out, Shak

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:18

if I may the other people just if I, when I'm thinking about this,

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:21

it's, I'm going back to that thing about where I've said, look, I've got an idea.

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:26

It might be a little bit risky.

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:27

Do you want me to take the risk?

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:29

Some of my current and previous line managers really quickly, Fran Hewitt,

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:32

Carolyn Walkers, who's now retired Jen Drury who's my current line

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:35

manager, and Mel Pickup chief exec for for Braford Teaching Hospital.

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:39

And the place based partnership lead.

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:41

They backed me and they backed me every single time.

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:44

Sorry to add a few more names to this, but I think it's important.

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:46

I wanna talk about allyship and how do you break down those barriers?

Shak Rafiq: 00:14:50

People believing in you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:55

Are you a communications professional who would like to feel

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:14:58

more confident in your career choices?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:00

Perhaps you'd like to be more intentional in the way you approach your work life?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:04

Our Cats Pajamas Thrive program is a 12 week structured online

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:08

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:12

It's a safe space for discussion, action, and accountability, or with

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:16

the aim of helping you to thrive as a communicator and as a leader.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:20

The next Thrive program starts on the 1st of September, and if you'd like to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:24

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:29

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:36

I love And if I may just explore a couple of the themes that you've

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:41

talked about there, cuz you've talked about that diversity.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:43

Of thinking actually, and how that's really important not to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:46

end up in a space where there's just lots of people like you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:49

And therefore creating that echo chamber and not having that challenge

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:52

and that diversity of thinking.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:54

But you also just mentioned risk and people having your back and listening

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:15:58

to you when you've come up with something that feels a bit risky.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:16:01

And I just, I think there seems to be a sort of connection there between creating

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:16:05

that diversity of thinking in your.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:16:08

Workforce in your communications team and your leadership team and that

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:16:12

ability to feel like you can take more risks and that feels like something

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:16:16

quite important to, to highlight.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:18

Yeah, absolutely.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:19

And I think taking risks is it's it's not taking a risk that's, So big that you know

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:25

it's gonna potentially have a detrimental effect to the running of a business.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:28

It's more of a calculated risk and weighing up the pros

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:32

and cons of making it clear.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:33

Because my job isn't to say, look, I'm gonna take a risk.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:35

It might cost us or our budget for this year.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:37

No, it's.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:38

This is the risk.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:39

Here's my thinking behind it, and this is where it might take us, but

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:42

this is the potential knock on effect.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:44

So making it really clear what that risk is and making it a calculated risk and

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:48

to get to the position you are in, for example, carry on, you'll have had to

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:52

take a lot of risk, but you've also had to demonstrate professional attitude and

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:57

being able to deliver the core business.

Shak Rafiq: 00:16:58

So once you can deliver the core business, then you've got the opportunity to think

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:02

about risk and equally importantly, how do you make sure people around you.

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:07

Think creatively and think differently and back them when they want to do something

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:11

a little bit different or challenge them in a more positive way to say,

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:14

look, if you do this, you might want to think this through, or, I like the idea.

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:19

However, these are some of the things from my experience when I've taken

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:22

the risk and this didn't quite work, but I'm sure you've got a way of

Shak Rafiq: 00:17:25

finding a finding, finding a solution.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:29

And a lot of what you've talked about, I think in terms of maybe reducing some of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:33

the challenges that we face or supporting others, maybe it's more about supporting

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:37

others to achieve their best potential than reducing some of those barriers.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:41

Feels a lot about relationships and having those good, strong relationships

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:45

with people who are supportive and part of that support isn't always

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:49

about, just stroking your ego is it, and saying how brilliant you are.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:52

Some of it is, like you say about that challenge and helping you to think

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:56

differently maybe that's something that you've not been used to.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:17:59

So yeah, I'm really interested in lots of what you've had to say in that space We've

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:18:03

talked a little bit about challenges.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:18:04

I don't know if there's anything else that you want to address in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:18:07

that space of sort of challenge from your comms career or more broadly in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:18:11

the comms space before we move on.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:14

I think it's the one that you'll hear.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:16

From colleagues who come from whichever diverse background you, you associate

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:22

with is sometimes not seeing people like you in certain positions.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:26

Not seeing people in this career can be quite difficult.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:29

So when I started, I think even now the percentages are

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:32

about 90 odd percent white.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:35

People in in public relations.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:37

But when I started it probably would've been even more towards a hundred percent.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:40

So there's been a shift, but not probably a significant shift.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:45

And I remember doing my course, I was one of the first, but I don't think

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:47

that's a, I don't think that's something that we need to beat ourselves up with.

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:51

It's more of we know where we are now and it's for people like me to think about

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:55

how do I work with people like yourself and others to change that dynamic?

Shak Rafiq: 00:18:59

So I see that as an opportunity.

Shak Rafiq: 00:19:00

So whilst it's.

Shak Rafiq: 00:19:01

A challenging environment that presents itself with lots of opportunities.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:06

Yeah, and I think you're right about doing something about it

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:10

because I feel like particularly in the nhs, which we've both been in a long

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:13

time, We've had lots of conversations about the fact that our profession isn't

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:17

particularly diverse, and I know there's a lot, but it's very female heavy.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:21

In the NHS generally, but in NHS comms as you say, probably a lot of white

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:26

females actually, but some of our.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:28

Most senior comms roles are probably filled with white males.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:32

there's so much that in that how undiverse our profession feels.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:36

But actually I feel like we do lots of talking, but maybe not the action.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:40

So actually, if some of that is just about.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:43

Getting different voices out there and talking about roles in, in the profession

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:47

and in the leadership space in the NHS through lots of different people.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:52

I think that's really important.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:53

Cause like you see then people are more likely to have the opportunity to see

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:19:56

someone who resonates with them and they think, oh if they can be in that space.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:00

Space I can be too.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:01

And it's important that people see I like your optimism and reframing of some

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:05

of those conversations that probably turn into a a talking shop into actually

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:10

how can this be an opportunity to do things differently in this space.

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:14

Yeah.

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:14

And I think just on that point, Carrie-Ann we easily get into

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:17

the bit of a cycle where we just say things aren't progressing.

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:19

And I've mentioned things haven't progressed as quickly,

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:21

but they have progressed.

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:23

So what do we need to do to accelerate some of that progression?

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:25

So 10, 15 years from now one of my children will be having

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:30

that sort of conversation.

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:31

Hopefully they choose a career in communications, but if not, in

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:34

whichever field they go into then they can see a difference in, in

Shak Rafiq: 00:20:38

the makeup of both their team and then all the leadership structures.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:42

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:43

So you've talked a little bit challenges you faced or that you've

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:46

perceived to have faced in your career, but I'm also interested to

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:49

know what some of the highlights of your public sector career have been

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:53

Shak it's probably a hard get you to.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:20:56

Focus on, cuz I know it's cringey talking about yourself and all the good stuff,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:00

but I know you've done brilliant things.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:01

So are there any particular highlights of your career to date you would

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:21:05

be happy to share, to hopefully inspire and encourage other people?

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:09

I think for me there's been lots of opportunities to do

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:11

first and first for the right reasons.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:13

So we spoke about risks and the risk reward payoff.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:17

So we weren't, we were the first n h s organization at that time to roll out

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:20

an internal work platform internal comms platform called Workplace by Facebook.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:25

That felt like quite a significant achievement because we, anyone who

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:28

works within our field will know that.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:30

The right challenges we get from information security and information

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:33

governance because it's their job to keep our information safe.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:37

So to, to find a solution that actually worked alongside all the

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:42

guidance that we've got in place to keep information safe and secure, felt

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:46

like a significant achievement through to winning a awards for some of our.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:51

Behavior change campaigns, but they're not just being led by me.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:53

And I think that's the most important thing is when all the

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:56

people have led on campaign that you've just provided that guidance.

Shak Rafiq: 00:21:59

That makes me really proud in terms of seeing people develop.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:02

And I've, we've had some brilliant work placement students who've gone

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:06

onto some fantastic careers, so I don't want to, make it about me.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:09

I could easily make it about me.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:10

But I think sometimes you just have to recognize the great people around you

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:14

and as you've said you've met my team.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:16

What a great team.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:18

And when we talk about taking calculated risks, my recruitment policy is always

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:23

to go by attitude as well as aptitudes.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:26

The attitude is right and maybe you haven't got the full skillset

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:30

and it might be a stretch for you.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:31

I'd rather take that risk knowing that you bring.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:34

Bags of potential bags of enthusiasm.

Shak Rafiq: 00:22:37

Enthusiasm and bags of new ways of thinking.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:40

I love that and I think that's one of the things that's

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:42

really brilliant about you, Shak I'll do the embarrassment for you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:45

So you haven't had to self embarrass, I think you are such a, such an advocate

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:49

and supporter of people developing themselves and taking chances on people

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:54

that perhaps maybe don't feel like they've got quite the right level of

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:22:57

experience or perhaps in another team.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:00

Might not be recruited because they don't meet all of tick, all

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:03

of the boxes on the form around kind of qualifications and academic

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:07

background and level of experience.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:09

I think the fact that you are willing to, what some people might

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:12

see as taking a chance on others, you provide these opportunities for

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:15

people to really grow and thrive and do that in your and I know beyond

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:19

when you are not able to offer those opportunities, you're very supportive.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:23

Of colleagues progressing for themselves personally.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:26

You don't seem to hold people back just because you perhaps don't have the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:29

opportunities for them in your team.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:31

I think you should definitely feel very proud of, how you support the development

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:35

of communicators in your team and beyond in, in the area that you work.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:39

So I'll thank you on behalf of all of those people that you've

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:42

had a positive impact for Shak

Shak Rafiq: 00:23:44

thank you, Carrie-Ann and yeah, that means I can

Shak Rafiq: 00:23:46

stop talking about myself.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:49

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:50

Conversations that I know we've had in lots of different places and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:53

with different groups of people is around how do we get fresh talent?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:23:58

And it links to the point that you've just made not always recruiting people based

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:02

on their experience or sort of academic ability but actually about attitude.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:06

How do we attract.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:08

More people into a career in communications in the public

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:11

sector, what do we do to make that more attractive to people?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:14

And you said you didn't even know it was an option 15 years ago when you joined

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:24:18

the NHS so is there stuff we could be to make it more attractive for people?

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:22

Most definitely.

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:23

So if we think about our sort of business function and it is a strategic

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:27

and important business function of communications and dare I say,

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:30

involvement as well, because I see them as, In part of one function.

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:35

One of the things that I've seen recently that is the right thing to do

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:38

is for example, the P R C A have set up a school's ambassador scheme, and

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:41

I know through NHS 75 there's similar ambassador schemes where you talk about

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:46

careers and there's an opportunity for us as communicators to get on

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:49

board with some of those ambassador schemes and be ambassadors ourselves.

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:53

I know it takes time out the diary book.

Shak Rafiq: 00:24:55

We could be unearthing some big talent who would not consider communications

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:00

and involvement as a career and certainly not in the public sector.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:04

So if it's not in the nhs, I'd be more than happy to see them in the local for

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:08

o t or with our VVCS partners or with any of our sort of blue light services.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:13

So that's, I think a way of doing it.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:15

The work you do around role profiling equally important.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:18

And then I think.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:21

This is where today we've seen the launch of the workforce plan.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:25

I have to confess, I haven't read all 152 pages of it, but one of

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:29

the headlines interestingly enough is around apprenticeships and

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:32

apprenticeships offering a route into some of the medical careers.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:36

I'm pretty certain that we don't use our apprenticeship levy well

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:40

enough across the NHS, so there might be opportunities there.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:43

It will take time sometimes to coach and guide people at the start of their career,

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:49

and then using that apprenticeship levy would then take me onto my third point,

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:53

which is probably a longer conversation with our HR and recruitment teams.

Shak Rafiq: 00:25:59

And this is where I see things like you must be educated to such and such a level.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:03

I know from where I grew up in the school I went to, there's some

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:08

amazingly talented people, but academia just didn't appeal to them.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:11

So they're never going to have those qualifications.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:14

But if you said to 'em, are you creative?

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:17

Can you think of ideas?

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:18

Can you help us get, if you present a challenge, they'll

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:22

have some amazing solutions.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:23

So how do we make it easier?

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:27

For people to get into roles, and then we talk about progression.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:30

I think that's a separate conversation, but one, getting people in as a as we

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:34

need to, and then progressing them.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:36

And there's existing examples of work that's gone on.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:39

So the mayor of London has got a comms traineeship scheme really clear.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:44

They've obviously sought legal guidance.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:46

They're looking for people from ethnically diverse communities

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:49

because there's a real challenge.

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:51

Similarly, there's a Taylor Bennett Foundation who do similar things, so I

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:55

think it is being, dare I said, a little bit creative with recruitment whilst being

Shak Rafiq: 00:26:59

within the letter of the law as well.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:01

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:02

And I don't wanna be a HR bash cuz I know my colleagues in HR

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:05

often get a really hard time.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:06

But I do sometimes think the process and the procedural stuff that we put

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:11

around recruitment doesn't give us sometimes the flexibility in the.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:15

Freedom to think differently about the types of people that we might recruit

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:18

and how we might go about doing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:20

So I think you've got, you've made some really brilliant and got some

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:23

good ideas that actually, if we could do that consistently across

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:27

the nhs, I think would make a real difference to making a role in NHS

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:32

communications more attractive to people.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:34

And one of the other things that I think you do brilliantly, and it

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:37

seems to be in your blood shack, is that whole partnership approach.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:41

So you saying actually, even if.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:44

We can't keep these people or attract them to NHS comms.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:47

There is local authority, voluntary sector, everything that happens, across

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:51

a community to support improved sort of health and social care outcomes.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:55

Comms plays a big role in that, and it doesn't have to be a comms

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:27:59

role in an NHS organization.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:00

There are other public sector.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:02

Careers out there for people.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:03

So I think that's an important point to make too.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:06

And I think you've touched on it a little bit and what you've said

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:08

around your examples from, the London Mayor and Taylor Bennett.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:12

But do you think there are things we can do to encourage more diversity?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:16

Because we've talked a lot about our profession in this conversation being,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:20

a heavily white, heavily female.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:22

Based profession and communications in the nhs.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:28:25

Is there stuff we could be shift that dial or do you feel it's not possible?

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:32

Nothing is impossible as far as I'm concerned.

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:35

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:37

I think it goes back to what I said right at the beginning.

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:39

We have to move from being just vocal allies to being active

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:42

allies and that means doing things.

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:45

Differently.

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:45

If anything if in 15 years time we can say we've had at least 10 people join

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:49

our profession who don't have five GCSEs don't, aren't educated to degree

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:53

level, that for me would be an amazing success because that shows that we've

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:57

thought differently about recruitment.

Shak Rafiq: 00:28:59

But right here, right now what we should be doing is looking at

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:03

those apprenticeship opportunities because there's probably money

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:06

sat there waiting to be exploited.

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:08

But how do you do it?

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:10

So that you reach out to people who are different to the ones that

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:14

you've got in your current teams.

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:15

And when we talk about diversity, I'm not just talking about, but

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:18

obviously I clearly come from a ethnically diverse background, but

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:21

it's not just ethnic diversity.

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:23

Really clear around neurodivergent talent and the creativity they bring

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:28

people with a disability and the live experience they, they bring.

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:32

So diverse teams deliver much better results.

Shak Rafiq: 00:29:35

You'd have to listen to me to say, Actual stacks of evidence.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:40

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:40

And then I you moving on to those practical things we could be doing

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:44

and I'm definitely gonna take that challenge away to have a look at our

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:47

apprenticeship levy in our organization and see what we can do in that from

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:51

a communications point of view.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:53

But I guess some of the people listening to this podcast will

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:29:56

be in leadership roles, so they can take that sort of action.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:00

But some people listening are likely to be aspiring to the next step in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:04

their communications career and maybe feel a little bit like, oh, I don't

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:07

feel like I have the opportunity or the power to do some of that sort of thing.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:12

But is there a.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:13

Practical thing that people listening to this podcast could do today or tomorrow

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:18

to encourage people to consider a career in public sector comms, do you think?

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:23

Consider a career in public sector comms.

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:26

I would say there's community sat on your doorstep who you could reach out to.

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:31

There's HR teams, if you're working a large provider organization

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:35

who do recruitment events.

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:37

Why is there not a comms, an involvement's done?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:41

Love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:42

That is really practical.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:43

There's no arguing with that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:44

That could take one person out of your team to do that, couldn't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:47

In terms of looking how we recruit and where we recruit from?

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:51

Just trying to find a clever quote, so apologies.

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:53

It looks as I'm doing something else,

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:54

but,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:55

No.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:30:55

I love a clever quote

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:56

But I'm gonna come to it towards the end, if that's okay.

Shak Rafiq: 00:30:58

If I find it,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:00

If you find it.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:01

I love it.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:02

We have talked a lot about, recruitment and I'm gonna take us on a slight tangent,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:06

we talked a lot about recruitment because obviously some of this conversation is

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:09

about how we attract people into a career in communications in the public sector.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:14

But once they're in, how do we keep them here?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:17

Because I feel privileged enough that I've reached a fairly senior level in

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:21

my comms career, and a lot of that has been done so, Working in the nhs and

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:25

I've been very well supported to do that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:27

But obviously there are only a finite number of senior comms roles

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:32

in the nhs, but that's probably a whole other podcast episode about

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:35

how we feel about some of that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:37

So how do we keep people when people are being dangled the car of moving into the

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:41

private sector for more money or maybe less stress because the NHS is a very.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:47

Sort of political place to work in of interest in How do we retain

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:50

good comms people in the NHS Shak?

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:31:53

And I'm throwing that one in as a bit of an unprepared question.

Shak Rafiq: 00:31:56

that's fine.

Shak Rafiq: 00:31:56

And I think it's a great question.

Shak Rafiq: 00:31:58

There's something about showing and demonstrating that you will develop them

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:03

to get them ready for their next role.

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:04

I always talk about, sometimes when I challenge members of my team, I'm

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:08

not challenging you because I'm trying to be difficult, but I want you.

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:12

When you go into that interview room to be the best person to be

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:15

able to demonstrate the range of abilities you bring into that role.

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:19

So when we talk about developing people it's really critical

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:23

that we look at different ways.

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:24

So are we giving them enough work to keep them going nine to five, but are we

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:29

giving them enough that stretches them?

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:31

Are we offering people an opportunity to lead pieces of work?

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:34

Make mistakes probably don't make the same mistake twice, cuz that then

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:38

suggest maybe we, we need to find out how we learn from those mistakes.

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:42

And then there's something about what opportunities exist in our wider system.

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:46

So are there shadowing opportunities?

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:48

Are there opportunities?

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:49

Again, I know HR people have to work really hard and we have more duty

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:54

bound by HR law, but is there a way of offering short term secondment

Shak Rafiq: 00:32:59

opportunities into other teams so you understand different environments?

Shak Rafiq: 00:33:03

So again, when you, when that opportunity presents itself to, to

Shak Rafiq: 00:33:07

take on a role that's, a step above the one you are on now, you've got the

Shak Rafiq: 00:33:13

opportunity to show how you will shine.

Shak Rafiq: 00:33:15

And I think there's something about.

Shak Rafiq: 00:33:17

The thing that always comes up for me is giving people a chance.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:21

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:21

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:22

That's definitely a strong theme with you, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:24

And I could talk to you probably all afternoon about this and I'm sure we've

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:28

spent lots of time talking about this before, but I'm conscious that our

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:31

listeners might well be listening to this while they're on a run or doing

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:34

some on in and or whatever they're doing when they listen to the podcast.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:37

And are probably like ready for us.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:39

To wrap up a bit now, there a kind of question wanted to pose to you, which

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:43

is really unfair cuz I didn't give you any prep time for this question,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:46

Shaq, but a lot of conversations I have with other communications leaders

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:51

is about what would be different if.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:53

Comms people ruled the world.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:54

And that might be a bit grand cuz maybe ruling the world is too But

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:33:58

if a comms person was in charge tomorrow what do you think would be

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:34:01

different and in a good way, what would a comms person bring to that if

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:34:05

they were the chief decision maker?

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:08

Probably two things.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:09

One I always call it the unwelcome mirror, so I'm being really strong

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:13

in terms of those decisions.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:15

The decisions we're making and taking, are they the right ones?

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:19

And giving that real sense check and bringing in all our stakeholders, what

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:24

is the impact on all our stakeholders.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:26

That's something that we bring that maybe others might not, that or they will

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:30

in a different way to us and I think.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:33

Again, I don't want to say all the professions don't, but that links to

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:36

maybe some of the common sense approaches to some of the problems we face.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:41

So those are two things and comms is a strategic business function.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:44

So we bring the level of insight because we're getting it from lots of sources.

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:49

So somebody somewhere needs to collect that and turn it into more manageable data

Shak Rafiq: 00:34:53

so that, that's a skillset set in itself.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:34:55

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:34:56

Thank you, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:34:56

Sorry I threw that one in as a bit of a curve ball question.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:34:59

I appreciate I appreciate you thinking on the spot to answer that one.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:03

So have you found your, your quote

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:05

Yeah,

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:05

end Shak so to you?

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:07

But I'm, it's got the F-bomb in there, so I'm gonna take it

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:10

out cuz I just realized I'm not gonna say who said it because I've just

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:15

mentioned there was an F-bomb on this.

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:16

But I was at an event and somebody just said this and I thought, this is so

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:20

true of everything we've said today.

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:22

And that was get out of your comfort zone and go and change the world.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:27

There could be no better ending to this podcast episode

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:30

than that, Shak, so I don't want to ruin it, but I'm in total agreement.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:35

So I'm going to echo that advice to anybody listening, and I know it's

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:39

something that you are doing on.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:40

Pretty much a daily basis with you and your team, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:43

So thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:44

I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:47

I hope people have found it useful and I'm sure this will be a conversation

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:50

we continue at a future date.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:52

So thank you so much for your time, Shak.

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:54

Thank you as well.

Shak Rafiq: 00:35:55

Carrie -Ann, thank you for all the work you are doing as well.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:35:57

Oh, thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:36:05

Thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:36:07

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:36:11

and leave a rating or a review..

Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:36:13

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Carrie-Ann Wade: 00:36:15

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