Episode 10

full
Published on:

13th Sep 2023

Behind the Bob - the one with Shak Rafiq

In this episode of Behind the Bob, Carrie-Ann Wade talks with Shak Rafiq about his communications career to date, diversity in the profession and how we can attract new talent into public sector communications.

Shak is an Associate Director of Communications and Engagement in the NHS and shares his insights and advice about being a communicator.

03:31 - values and community led

06:01 - imposter syndrome, are we holding ourselves back?

11:44 - role modelling and representation - the challenges

19:14 - diversity of our profession and seeing someone like me

24:24 - attracting new talent, ambassadors and apprenticeships

Thank you Shak for taking time out to share your thoughts and experiences to support and inspire others.

----------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoyed listening please share it, leave a rating or a review.

New episodes of Behind the Bob are published every Wednesday and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.

You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Transcript
Carrie-Ann Wade:

Welcome to Behind the Bob Diary of a Comms

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Director with me, Carrie Ann Wade.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

Carrie-Ann Wade:

be a special guest or two popping up.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I hope you enjoy.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Behind the Bob, and you will

Carrie-Ann Wade:

be very happy to hear this is another one of those episodes with a special guest

Carrie-Ann Wade:

popping up to have a conversation with.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I'm really delighted that this conversation is with the fabulous Shak

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Rafiq so Shak, welcome to the podcast.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I will let you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

before we get into the conversation.

Shak Rafiq:

Thank you.

Shak Rafiq:

Carrie-Ann and thank you for giving me the opportunity to

Shak Rafiq:

be part of this podcast series.

Shak Rafiq:

Hello, my name is Shak and I'm the associate Director for communications

Shak Rafiq:

and involvement for Bradford District and Craven Health and Care Partnership,

Shak Rafiq:

which is our fantastic place based partnership within the Fantastic West

Shak Rafiq:

Yorkshire integrated care system.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I can, vouch for the fact that it's fantastic because I was

Carrie-Ann Wade:

lucky enough to be invited to visit you up in Bradford a week or so ago.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And, you have a fabulous team and Bradford is definitely a brilliant place to be.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I'm hoping that I get a return visit at some point.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Shak, but.

Shak Rafiq:

Most definitely Carrie-Ann and be very welcome to to visit us again.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And we've known each other for a little while now through the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

NHS communications community.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think we've done webinars and various other things together.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So this won't be the first of these sorts of conversations that we've had,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

but it's perhaps the first that we've recorded in this I'm really interested

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and I did get a sneak preview Last week when I met up with you about where you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

started out in your communications career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But it would be really nice to hear from you a little bit about your

Carrie-Ann Wade:

career as a comms professional so far.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So could you enlighten us on your journey?

Shak Rafiq:

Absolutely Carrie-Ann I think this is the hardest thing to do, isn't it?

Shak Rafiq:

To talk about yourself.

Shak Rafiq:

I think it's worth saying.

Shak Rafiq:

I've been in the NHS 15 years now.

Shak Rafiq:

So it almost feels like that's been my life for a while.

Shak Rafiq:

But prior to that I've worked in the community and voluntary

Shak Rafiq:

sector for a university.

Shak Rafiq:

So my first job was at Oxford Brooks University.

Shak Rafiq:

And I've done a public relations degree throughout that time.

Shak Rafiq:

I've worked in some fantastic teams with some fantastic managers and some

Shak Rafiq:

fantastic leaders that have given me the chance to grow and learn lots of skills.

Shak Rafiq:

I feel now I've got that.

Shak Rafiq:

Technical experience in all the things you'd expect at this

Shak Rafiq:

level when you of leadership in communications and involvement.

Shak Rafiq:

So I'm not going to talk about what I've done because I just find that

Shak Rafiq:

really embarrassing a little bit.

Shak Rafiq:

But it

Carrie-Ann Wade:

cringy, isn't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

We're not good at communicators at talking about ourselves doing our own pr.

Shak Rafiq:

No.

Shak Rafiq:

So I'm really sorry.

Shak Rafiq:

I dunno how to summarize, but I've just had a I feel fantastically lucky and

Shak Rafiq:

privileged to have excelled in my career with the support, some brilliant people.

Shak Rafiq:

And I know through this conversation we'll talk about some of the barriers

Shak Rafiq:

that maybe I've come up against.

Shak Rafiq:

And I've either realized consciously at the time or on reflection, realize

Shak Rafiq:

this is probably what, maybe stunted that progress which it feels like

Shak Rafiq:

it's accelerated more recently.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You've said you started in, a university comms role and you

Carrie-Ann Wade:

obviously have got your 15 in the NHS.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Before we move on, what did attract you to work in public sector communications?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Was it a conscious choice or something that just naturally happened for you Shak?

Shak Rafiq:

It was a conscious choice.

Shak Rafiq:

I've always been, I would say values and community led.

Shak Rafiq:

And actually going, reflecting back on my career, I say that, but

Shak Rafiq:

I was actually going to do law, which is probably the complete

Shak Rafiq:

opposite of what I've just said now.

Shak Rafiq:

However I fell into public relations and did a public relations degree.

Shak Rafiq:

And then I decided once I'd done my degree and realized this is

Shak Rafiq:

the field I'm wanting to work in.

Shak Rafiq:

It was clear then actually law would've been the wrong choice.

Shak Rafiq:

I would've regretted it.

Shak Rafiq:

Because I would've been working probably with a commercial mindset.

Shak Rafiq:

And whilst I was doing my degree, I did two placements, and one was at

Shak Rafiq:

the West Yorkshire Police and one was at the National Media Museum.

Shak Rafiq:

Both in their own right.

Shak Rafiq:

Public bodies people not profit first.

Shak Rafiq:

And from there on in it, it was clear that I wanted to be in, in the public sector.

Shak Rafiq:

Interestingly enough though, carry on.

Shak Rafiq:

I didn't know, believe it or not, that you could get a communications role

Shak Rafiq:

within the n hs until I applied for my first role within the nhss, only because

Shak Rafiq:

I'd been working at this community development organization and we held

Shak Rafiq:

a session on health inequalities.

Shak Rafiq:

And lo and behold, in this room, there's, and there were one or two people who

Shak Rafiq:

worked in communications in the nhs and I thought, That's interesting.

Shak Rafiq:

I'm going to have a look to see if there's any opportunities.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Isn't that interesting?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And there's a bit of me that thinks, I guess why would people a viable

Carrie-Ann Wade:

kind of career choice for them?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I'm sure we'll talk about it a bit later, but I'm really glad that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

found out that comms in the NHS was a thing because we've been lucky to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

have you in that for those 15 years.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But it sounds like very much values driven and like you not about the commercial

Carrie-Ann Wade:

stuff, not profit first, but people first is what's kept you in the public

Shak Rafiq:

Yeah.

Shak Rafiq:

Although, Carrie-Ann I must say, for the wider communications field I do

Shak Rafiq:

understand the contribution and the value that all sectors bring to society.

Shak Rafiq:

And when we talk about inequalities and inequalities, one of the most important

Shak Rafiq:

things is lifting people out of.

Shak Rafiq:

Poverty and issues related to socioeconomic progress.

Shak Rafiq:

So I, I recognize the valuable contribution that businesses make,

Shak Rafiq:

so it's more of a conscious decision for me not to work in that field.

Shak Rafiq:

But that's not to say it, it doesn't have a significant

Shak Rafiq:

contribution to society as a whole.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you mentioned it briefly when we started this conversation, but one of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the things I was interested in is whether or not you have felt that there has

Carrie-Ann Wade:

been anything that's been a barrier or a challenge for you in your career to date.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And if you could talk a little bit about that, if that's the case.

Shak Rafiq:

Yeah, so there's probably an ongoing barrier

Shak Rafiq:

that I would say all of us.

Shak Rafiq:

Would relate to, and that's imposter syndrome.

Shak Rafiq:

Am I really supposed to be in this room?

Shak Rafiq:

Do I really know what I'm talking about?

Shak Rafiq:

Are my ideas the right ones?

Shak Rafiq:

Will they be heard?

Shak Rafiq:

I speak clearly with a very broad Yorkshire accent.

Shak Rafiq:

I'm not, I haven't been minded to change it.

Shak Rafiq:

I

Shak Rafiq:

know.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Good on

Shak Rafiq:

Exactly.

Shak Rafiq:

Exactly.

Shak Rafiq:

And I know the background I come from and I'm really proud of that.

Shak Rafiq:

But sometimes you feel, is that going to hold me back?

Shak Rafiq:

In certain environments I don't have those.

Shak Rafiq:

But I suppose through my career, I've developed those networks, but I've

Shak Rafiq:

not had them immediately to rely on.

Shak Rafiq:

So I think that really I don't know, there's a psychological block sometimes

Shak Rafiq:

from an imposter syndrome perspective.

Shak Rafiq:

And then I think early on in my career great managers, as I've said,

Shak Rafiq:

but me, myself have probably not been brave enough to speak as often.

Shak Rafiq:

I know people will be very surprised when they hear that I

Shak Rafiq:

don't speak loudly or often I do.

Shak Rafiq:

But maybe there's opportunities where I've not done so.

Shak Rafiq:

And it was a really useful piece of advice that I got from a former chief

Shak Rafiq:

executive who I had the privilege of working under and she, made it really

Shak Rafiq:

clear that there's times where she knows there's a contribution that.

Shak Rafiq:

It's waiting to come from me, but it doesn't arrive because for

Shak Rafiq:

whatever reason, you don't want to share it out of the fear of getting

Shak Rafiq:

it wrong or making a mistake.

Shak Rafiq:

So that again, takes you back into imposter syndrome and

Shak Rafiq:

the worry of making a mistake.

Shak Rafiq:

And now I'm not as worried about making mistakes.

Shak Rafiq:

In fact, I love making them because it gives me something to learn from.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And you know what?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's really refreshing and I will say this, to hear a man talk about

Carrie-Ann Wade:

imposter syndrome because quite a lot of the conversations that I have around

Carrie-Ann Wade:

self-belief and confidence and all linked that kind of sense of an imposter syndrome

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of sorts generally tend to be with women.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think it's something that is seen as a label that is put onto women who

Carrie-Ann Wade:

are not confident in the workplace.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So actually it's.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It is really refreshing refreshing, and quite insightful, I think to from as a man

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Shak, that imposter syndrome is something that you conscious of and has, have,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

has perhaps affected you in your career.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Definitely thank you for sharing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I absolutely, from what you've said, have so many conversations

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with communications professionals who don't think they have.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

The same right as someone else to be in the room and that they don't have an equal

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, it seems to be something that's quite prevalent in our profession and I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade:

not sure what we address some of that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Maybe it comes with age and experience and I dunno if I say wisdom, I'm

Carrie-Ann Wade:

not sure how wise I am, but that you just, in the end, I'm just

Carrie-Ann Wade:

gonna say it and share my opinion.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But there are things I think that hold you back from doing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it seems to be something that communicators say a lot.

Shak Rafiq:

Most definitely.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think Carrie-Ann that's a great point around others who will have

Shak Rafiq:

similar experiences because societally, whilst we think we've made significant

Shak Rafiq:

progress if I talk about protective characteristics and how far we've

Shak Rafiq:

progressed, actually we've been in some instances small baby step, but with a

Shak Rafiq:

lot of gesture politics around them.

Shak Rafiq:

And that's my worry.

Shak Rafiq:

So how do we make sure those who feel like this.

Shak Rafiq:

Are brought into plain view so others can understand what proper allyship means.

Shak Rafiq:

And it goes beyond saying the right things.

Shak Rafiq:

It's doing the right thing.

Shak Rafiq:

So I think the point you make is a really good one.

Shak Rafiq:

Carrie-Ann if I may, the other thing that really helped me, and I never

Shak Rafiq:

used to fully understand the reasons why you would develop certain.

Shak Rafiq:

Developmental programs for certain cohorts.

Shak Rafiq:

I never really fully understood it.

Shak Rafiq:

I used to think it was wrong for whatever reason, but then I went on a

Shak Rafiq:

leadership course called Stepping Up, and I was done by the leadership Academy

Shak Rafiq:

and it was specifically for people from ethnically diverse backgrounds.

Shak Rafiq:

And then when I went on that course, I recognized and lived

Shak Rafiq:

to the experiences of others and immediately it resonated with me.

Shak Rafiq:

Maybe not to some of the extremes I was listening or felt in one sense.

Shak Rafiq:

Happy that I didn't quite have those extremities.

Shak Rafiq:

But at the same time, I felt sad for the people that did.

Shak Rafiq:

But once I went on that course, for me there was two things.

Shak Rafiq:

One I don't want to be sort having that same conversation

Shak Rafiq:

with myself in a year's time.

Shak Rafiq:

Slot yourself out on what you gonna do about it.

Shak Rafiq:

And secondly how are you gonna work with others to make sure they recognize you

Shak Rafiq:

are now on a journey and you don't want to carry on doing great tactical work, but.

Shak Rafiq:

Then always continuing to be at that level.

Shak Rafiq:

So I went to break probably what I felt was a glass ceiling and whether or not

Shak Rafiq:

there was I'm not sure, and I wouldn't want anyone to think I, I feel there was,

Shak Rafiq:

but just internally it felt like one.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Oh, thank you so much for sharing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think it brings us onto that bit of the conversation I wanted to have

Carrie-Ann Wade:

around the kind of how we can start to reduce some of the barriers that people

Carrie-Ann Wade:

might recognize that you've described and might be experiencing in their careers.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And also I guess a bit whose role is it to do some of that?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I love what I'm hearing from you, Shak, is that quite a lot of it for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you, it feels like it's your role to do some of that and role model it and.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Talk about and communicate and educate others about your own experience in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the hope that it helps other people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But yeah, I would be interested to know in terms of those barriers, whether

Carrie-Ann Wade:

perceived or real around the glass ceiling and some of that imposter syndrome stuff.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Like what can we be doing challenge some of that and improve

Carrie-Ann Wade:

things for other communicators.

Shak Rafiq:

I think that point you make about.

Shak Rafiq:

How do we break through that cross scene and some of the barriers?

Shak Rafiq:

I think the other thing to remember is whilst you're a role model or a

Shak Rafiq:

perceived role model and Carrie-Ann you, you are one of those people I

Shak Rafiq:

admire so much in terms of what you do and how much I learn from you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Oh, right back at you, but thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'll take that

Shak Rafiq:

and there's others who I could easily mention on on, on this podcast.

Shak Rafiq:

And I'm careful not to because I'll probably miss someone

Shak Rafiq:

and they'll think, why?

Shak Rafiq:

why

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And they'll, how rude, why didn't you say me?

Shak Rafiq:

But I think when you're in that position as a role

Shak Rafiq:

model, that creates a separate pressure in its own right.

Shak Rafiq:

Because I'm here to represent me.

Shak Rafiq:

I can't represent a whole community, whatever community

Shak Rafiq:

you want to think I'm from.

Shak Rafiq:

And also, and the expectation is, You will somehow be the only one that

Shak Rafiq:

drags other people into this space.

Shak Rafiq:

No.

Shak Rafiq:

We have to work on it together.

Shak Rafiq:

So that's something I would say first and foremost, in terms of

Shak Rafiq:

breaking down those barriers.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think if we think about those forums and networks and meeting environments

Shak Rafiq:

where those decisions are made.

Shak Rafiq:

How willing are we to accept new ideas and new ways of thinking?

Shak Rafiq:

And if I think about a different form of diversity neurodivergent thinking.

Shak Rafiq:

So creativity in our industry is really important.

Shak Rafiq:

Why do we always hey, hire people that may look, sound, think like

Shak Rafiq:

us and not think broader than that?

Shak Rafiq:

And then in a meeting setting, if someone's expressing an idea, maybe

Shak Rafiq:

not in the same way you would.

Shak Rafiq:

Listen to it first, understand where they're coming from and understand that

Shak Rafiq:

they bring a lived experience with it.

Shak Rafiq:

Usually that will give you the insight into a community, but they're not the

Shak Rafiq:

sole representative of that community.

Shak Rafiq:

But it just gives you an opportunity to challenge your thinking.

Shak Rafiq:

And I would say mentorships amazing.

Shak Rafiq:

I've had some.

Shak Rafiq:

Brilliant mentors.

Shak Rafiq:

In fact, I will mention three because I, I think I have to

Shak Rafiq:

one's Jane Westmoreland and Leeds.

Shak Rafiq:

Just an amazing communicator and just an amazing person who has always

Shak Rafiq:

given me time when I've needed it.

Shak Rafiq:

Ranjeet Kaile, who you'll know really well, again, Dito always.

Shak Rafiq:

Therefore me my current mentor is John Holden, who retires soon, and I just

Shak Rafiq:

wanted to give him a shout out to say in the last sort of year, 18 months.

Shak Rafiq:

Hi.

Shak Rafiq:

His guidance has been immense.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Oh, thank you for the shout.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Shout And I think I'm gonna have to invite Ranjit onto the podcast because

Carrie-Ann Wade:

this is the second episode I've recorded where Ranjeet's had a shout

Carrie-Ann Wade:

out for something different in the last episode, but I think that says something

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about the impact that he's having.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Particularly in this space the profession and communications

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in the NHS in particular.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I think it's actually really important, and I know we joke saying

Carrie-Ann Wade:

you can't shout out everybody cuz for fear that you'll miss someone

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and then they'll be offended.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I think that opportunity to express gratitude and thank people and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

actually give people that name check sometimes is really important because

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I don't think people often realize how much of an impact they have.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

On others in terms of their development and their growth and supporting them.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So it's really nice to be able to do I think it was a good call

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to give them the shout out, Shak

Shak Rafiq:

if I may the other people just if I, when I'm thinking about this,

Shak Rafiq:

it's, I'm going back to that thing about where I've said, look, I've got an idea.

Shak Rafiq:

It might be a little bit risky.

Shak Rafiq:

Do you want me to take the risk?

Shak Rafiq:

Some of my current and previous line managers really quickly, Fran Hewitt,

Shak Rafiq:

Carolyn Walkers, who's now retired Jen Drury who's my current line

Shak Rafiq:

manager, and Mel Pickup chief exec for for Braford Teaching Hospital.

Shak Rafiq:

And the place based partnership lead.

Shak Rafiq:

They backed me and they backed me every single time.

Shak Rafiq:

Sorry to add a few more names to this, but I think it's important.

Shak Rafiq:

I wanna talk about allyship and how do you break down those barriers?

Shak Rafiq:

People believing in you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Are you a communications professional who would like to feel

Carrie-Ann Wade:

more confident in your career choices?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Perhaps you'd like to be more intentional in the way you approach your work life?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Our Cats Pajamas Thrive program is a 12 week structured online

Carrie-Ann Wade:

program that supports communications professionals to grow and thrive.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

It's a safe space for discussion, action, and accountability, or with

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the aim of helping you to thrive as a communicator and as a leader.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

The next Thrive program starts on the 1st of September, and if you'd like to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

find out more or reserve your place on the program, visit the website, catch up

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with us on the socials, or drop us a line.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love And if I may just explore a couple of the themes that you've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

talked about there, cuz you've talked about that diversity.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Of thinking actually, and how that's really important not to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

end up in a space where there's just lots of people like you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And therefore creating that echo chamber and not having that challenge

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and that diversity of thinking.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But you also just mentioned risk and people having your back and listening

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to you when you've come up with something that feels a bit risky.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I just, I think there seems to be a sort of connection there between creating

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that diversity of thinking in your.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Workforce in your communications team and your leadership team and that

Carrie-Ann Wade:

ability to feel like you can take more risks and that feels like something

Carrie-Ann Wade:

quite important to, to highlight.

Shak Rafiq:

Yeah, absolutely.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think taking risks is it's it's not taking a risk that's, So big that you know

Shak Rafiq:

it's gonna potentially have a detrimental effect to the running of a business.

Shak Rafiq:

It's more of a calculated risk and weighing up the pros

Shak Rafiq:

and cons of making it clear.

Shak Rafiq:

Because my job isn't to say, look, I'm gonna take a risk.

Shak Rafiq:

It might cost us or our budget for this year.

Shak Rafiq:

No, it's.

Shak Rafiq:

This is the risk.

Shak Rafiq:

Here's my thinking behind it, and this is where it might take us, but

Shak Rafiq:

this is the potential knock on effect.

Shak Rafiq:

So making it really clear what that risk is and making it a calculated risk and

Shak Rafiq:

to get to the position you are in, for example, carry on, you'll have had to

Shak Rafiq:

take a lot of risk, but you've also had to demonstrate professional attitude and

Shak Rafiq:

being able to deliver the core business.

Shak Rafiq:

So once you can deliver the core business, then you've got the opportunity to think

Shak Rafiq:

about risk and equally importantly, how do you make sure people around you.

Shak Rafiq:

Think creatively and think differently and back them when they want to do something

Shak Rafiq:

a little bit different or challenge them in a more positive way to say,

Shak Rafiq:

look, if you do this, you might want to think this through, or, I like the idea.

Shak Rafiq:

However, these are some of the things from my experience when I've taken

Shak Rafiq:

the risk and this didn't quite work, but I'm sure you've got a way of

Shak Rafiq:

finding a finding, finding a solution.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And a lot of what you've talked about, I think in terms of maybe reducing some of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the challenges that we face or supporting others, maybe it's more about supporting

Carrie-Ann Wade:

others to achieve their best potential than reducing some of those barriers.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Feels a lot about relationships and having those good, strong relationships

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with people who are supportive and part of that support isn't always

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about, just stroking your ego is it, and saying how brilliant you are.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Some of it is, like you say about that challenge and helping you to think

Carrie-Ann Wade:

differently maybe that's something that you've not been used to.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So yeah, I'm really interested in lots of what you've had to say in that space We've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

talked a little bit about challenges.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I don't know if there's anything else that you want to address in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that space of sort of challenge from your comms career or more broadly in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the comms space before we move on.

Shak Rafiq:

I think it's the one that you'll hear.

Shak Rafiq:

From colleagues who come from whichever diverse background you, you associate

Shak Rafiq:

with is sometimes not seeing people like you in certain positions.

Shak Rafiq:

Not seeing people in this career can be quite difficult.

Shak Rafiq:

So when I started, I think even now the percentages are

Shak Rafiq:

about 90 odd percent white.

Shak Rafiq:

People in in public relations.

Shak Rafiq:

But when I started it probably would've been even more towards a hundred percent.

Shak Rafiq:

So there's been a shift, but not probably a significant shift.

Shak Rafiq:

And I remember doing my course, I was one of the first, but I don't think

Shak Rafiq:

that's a, I don't think that's something that we need to beat ourselves up with.

Shak Rafiq:

It's more of we know where we are now and it's for people like me to think about

Shak Rafiq:

how do I work with people like yourself and others to change that dynamic?

Shak Rafiq:

So I see that as an opportunity.

Shak Rafiq:

So whilst it's.

Shak Rafiq:

A challenging environment that presents itself with lots of opportunities.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, and I think you're right about doing something about it

Carrie-Ann Wade:

because I feel like particularly in the nhs, which we've both been in a long

Carrie-Ann Wade:

time, We've had lots of conversations about the fact that our profession isn't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

particularly diverse, and I know there's a lot, but it's very female heavy.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

In the NHS generally, but in NHS comms as you say, probably a lot of white

Carrie-Ann Wade:

females actually, but some of our.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Most senior comms roles are probably filled with white males.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

there's so much that in that how undiverse our profession feels.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But actually I feel like we do lots of talking, but maybe not the action.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So actually, if some of that is just about.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Getting different voices out there and talking about roles in, in the profession

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and in the leadership space in the NHS through lots of different people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think that's really important.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Cause like you see then people are more likely to have the opportunity to see

Carrie-Ann Wade:

someone who resonates with them and they think, oh if they can be in that space.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Space I can be too.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it's important that people see I like your optimism and reframing of some

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of those conversations that probably turn into a a talking shop into actually

Carrie-Ann Wade:

how can this be an opportunity to do things differently in this space.

Shak Rafiq:

Yeah.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think just on that point, Carrie-Ann we easily get into

Shak Rafiq:

the bit of a cycle where we just say things aren't progressing.

Shak Rafiq:

And I've mentioned things haven't progressed as quickly,

Shak Rafiq:

but they have progressed.

Shak Rafiq:

So what do we need to do to accelerate some of that progression?

Shak Rafiq:

So 10, 15 years from now one of my children will be having

Shak Rafiq:

that sort of conversation.

Shak Rafiq:

Hopefully they choose a career in communications, but if not, in

Shak Rafiq:

whichever field they go into then they can see a difference in, in

Shak Rafiq:

the makeup of both their team and then all the leadership structures.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you've talked a little bit challenges you faced or that you've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

perceived to have faced in your career, but I'm also interested to

Carrie-Ann Wade:

know what some of the highlights of your public sector career have been

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Shak it's probably a hard get you to.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Focus on, cuz I know it's cringey talking about yourself and all the good stuff,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

but I know you've done brilliant things.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So are there any particular highlights of your career to date you would

Carrie-Ann Wade:

be happy to share, to hopefully inspire and encourage other people?

Shak Rafiq:

I think for me there's been lots of opportunities to do

Shak Rafiq:

first and first for the right reasons.

Shak Rafiq:

So we spoke about risks and the risk reward payoff.

Shak Rafiq:

So we weren't, we were the first n h s organization at that time to roll out

Shak Rafiq:

an internal work platform internal comms platform called Workplace by Facebook.

Shak Rafiq:

That felt like quite a significant achievement because we, anyone who

Shak Rafiq:

works within our field will know that.

Shak Rafiq:

The right challenges we get from information security and information

Shak Rafiq:

governance because it's their job to keep our information safe.

Shak Rafiq:

So to, to find a solution that actually worked alongside all the

Shak Rafiq:

guidance that we've got in place to keep information safe and secure, felt

Shak Rafiq:

like a significant achievement through to winning a awards for some of our.

Shak Rafiq:

Behavior change campaigns, but they're not just being led by me.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think that's the most important thing is when all the

Shak Rafiq:

people have led on campaign that you've just provided that guidance.

Shak Rafiq:

That makes me really proud in terms of seeing people develop.

Shak Rafiq:

And I've, we've had some brilliant work placement students who've gone

Shak Rafiq:

onto some fantastic careers, so I don't want to, make it about me.

Shak Rafiq:

I could easily make it about me.

Shak Rafiq:

But I think sometimes you just have to recognize the great people around you

Shak Rafiq:

and as you've said you've met my team.

Shak Rafiq:

What a great team.

Shak Rafiq:

And when we talk about taking calculated risks, my recruitment policy is always

Shak Rafiq:

to go by attitude as well as aptitudes.

Shak Rafiq:

The attitude is right and maybe you haven't got the full skillset

Shak Rafiq:

and it might be a stretch for you.

Shak Rafiq:

I'd rather take that risk knowing that you bring.

Shak Rafiq:

Bags of potential bags of enthusiasm.

Shak Rafiq:

Enthusiasm and bags of new ways of thinking.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that and I think that's one of the things that's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

really brilliant about you, Shak I'll do the embarrassment for you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you haven't had to self embarrass, I think you are such a, such an advocate

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and supporter of people developing themselves and taking chances on people

Carrie-Ann Wade:

that perhaps maybe don't feel like they've got quite the right level of

Carrie-Ann Wade:

experience or perhaps in another team.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Might not be recruited because they don't meet all of tick, all

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of the boxes on the form around kind of qualifications and academic

Carrie-Ann Wade:

background and level of experience.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think the fact that you are willing to, what some people might

Carrie-Ann Wade:

see as taking a chance on others, you provide these opportunities for

Carrie-Ann Wade:

people to really grow and thrive and do that in your and I know beyond

Carrie-Ann Wade:

when you are not able to offer those opportunities, you're very supportive.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Of colleagues progressing for themselves personally.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You don't seem to hold people back just because you perhaps don't have the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

opportunities for them in your team.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I think you should definitely feel very proud of, how you support the development

Carrie-Ann Wade:

of communicators in your team and beyond in, in the area that you work.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I'll thank you on behalf of all of those people that you've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

had a positive impact for Shak

Shak Rafiq:

thank you, Carrie-Ann and yeah, that means I can

Shak Rafiq:

stop talking about myself.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Conversations that I know we've had in lots of different places and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

with different groups of people is around how do we get fresh talent?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And it links to the point that you've just made not always recruiting people based

Carrie-Ann Wade:

on their experience or sort of academic ability but actually about attitude.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

How do we attract.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

More people into a career in communications in the public

Carrie-Ann Wade:

sector, what do we do to make that more attractive to people?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And you said you didn't even know it was an option 15 years ago when you joined

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the NHS so is there stuff we could be to make it more attractive for people?

Shak Rafiq:

Most definitely.

Shak Rafiq:

So if we think about our sort of business function and it is a strategic

Shak Rafiq:

and important business function of communications and dare I say,

Shak Rafiq:

involvement as well, because I see them as, In part of one function.

Shak Rafiq:

One of the things that I've seen recently that is the right thing to do

Shak Rafiq:

is for example, the P R C A have set up a school's ambassador scheme, and

Shak Rafiq:

I know through NHS 75 there's similar ambassador schemes where you talk about

Shak Rafiq:

careers and there's an opportunity for us as communicators to get on

Shak Rafiq:

board with some of those ambassador schemes and be ambassadors ourselves.

Shak Rafiq:

I know it takes time out the diary book.

Shak Rafiq:

We could be unearthing some big talent who would not consider communications

Shak Rafiq:

and involvement as a career and certainly not in the public sector.

Shak Rafiq:

So if it's not in the nhs, I'd be more than happy to see them in the local for

Shak Rafiq:

o t or with our VVCS partners or with any of our sort of blue light services.

Shak Rafiq:

So that's, I think a way of doing it.

Shak Rafiq:

The work you do around role profiling equally important.

Shak Rafiq:

And then I think.

Shak Rafiq:

This is where today we've seen the launch of the workforce plan.

Shak Rafiq:

I have to confess, I haven't read all 152 pages of it, but one of

Shak Rafiq:

the headlines interestingly enough is around apprenticeships and

Shak Rafiq:

apprenticeships offering a route into some of the medical careers.

Shak Rafiq:

I'm pretty certain that we don't use our apprenticeship levy well

Shak Rafiq:

enough across the NHS, so there might be opportunities there.

Shak Rafiq:

It will take time sometimes to coach and guide people at the start of their career,

Shak Rafiq:

and then using that apprenticeship levy would then take me onto my third point,

Shak Rafiq:

which is probably a longer conversation with our HR and recruitment teams.

Shak Rafiq:

And this is where I see things like you must be educated to such and such a level.

Shak Rafiq:

I know from where I grew up in the school I went to, there's some

Shak Rafiq:

amazingly talented people, but academia just didn't appeal to them.

Shak Rafiq:

So they're never going to have those qualifications.

Shak Rafiq:

But if you said to 'em, are you creative?

Shak Rafiq:

Can you think of ideas?

Shak Rafiq:

Can you help us get, if you present a challenge, they'll

Shak Rafiq:

have some amazing solutions.

Shak Rafiq:

So how do we make it easier?

Shak Rafiq:

For people to get into roles, and then we talk about progression.

Shak Rafiq:

I think that's a separate conversation, but one, getting people in as a as we

Shak Rafiq:

need to, and then progressing them.

Shak Rafiq:

And there's existing examples of work that's gone on.

Shak Rafiq:

So the mayor of London has got a comms traineeship scheme really clear.

Shak Rafiq:

They've obviously sought legal guidance.

Shak Rafiq:

They're looking for people from ethnically diverse communities

Shak Rafiq:

because there's a real challenge.

Shak Rafiq:

Similarly, there's a Taylor Bennett Foundation who do similar things, so I

Shak Rafiq:

think it is being, dare I said, a little bit creative with recruitment whilst being

Shak Rafiq:

within the letter of the law as well.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I don't wanna be a HR bash cuz I know my colleagues in HR

Carrie-Ann Wade:

often get a really hard time.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I do sometimes think the process and the procedural stuff that we put

Carrie-Ann Wade:

around recruitment doesn't give us sometimes the flexibility in the.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Freedom to think differently about the types of people that we might recruit

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and how we might go about doing that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I think you've got, you've made some really brilliant and got some

Carrie-Ann Wade:

good ideas that actually, if we could do that consistently across

Carrie-Ann Wade:

the nhs, I think would make a real difference to making a role in NHS

Carrie-Ann Wade:

communications more attractive to people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And one of the other things that I think you do brilliantly, and it

Carrie-Ann Wade:

seems to be in your blood shack, is that whole partnership approach.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So you saying actually, even if.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

We can't keep these people or attract them to NHS comms.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

There is local authority, voluntary sector, everything that happens, across

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a community to support improved sort of health and social care outcomes.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Comms plays a big role in that, and it doesn't have to be a comms

Carrie-Ann Wade:

role in an NHS organization.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

There are other public sector.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Careers out there for people.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I think that's an important point to make too.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I think you've touched on it a little bit and what you've said

Carrie-Ann Wade:

around your examples from, the London Mayor and Taylor Bennett.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But do you think there are things we can do to encourage more diversity?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Because we've talked a lot about our profession in this conversation being,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a heavily white, heavily female.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Based profession and communications in the nhs.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Is there stuff we could be shift that dial or do you feel it's not possible?

Shak Rafiq:

Nothing is impossible as far as I'm concerned.

Shak Rafiq:

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Shak Rafiq:

I think it goes back to what I said right at the beginning.

Shak Rafiq:

We have to move from being just vocal allies to being active

Shak Rafiq:

allies and that means doing things.

Shak Rafiq:

Differently.

Shak Rafiq:

If anything if in 15 years time we can say we've had at least 10 people join

Shak Rafiq:

our profession who don't have five GCSEs don't, aren't educated to degree

Shak Rafiq:

level, that for me would be an amazing success because that shows that we've

Shak Rafiq:

thought differently about recruitment.

Shak Rafiq:

But right here, right now what we should be doing is looking at

Shak Rafiq:

those apprenticeship opportunities because there's probably money

Shak Rafiq:

sat there waiting to be exploited.

Shak Rafiq:

But how do you do it?

Shak Rafiq:

So that you reach out to people who are different to the ones that

Shak Rafiq:

you've got in your current teams.

Shak Rafiq:

And when we talk about diversity, I'm not just talking about, but

Shak Rafiq:

obviously I clearly come from a ethnically diverse background, but

Shak Rafiq:

it's not just ethnic diversity.

Shak Rafiq:

Really clear around neurodivergent talent and the creativity they bring

Shak Rafiq:

people with a disability and the live experience they, they bring.

Shak Rafiq:

So diverse teams deliver much better results.

Shak Rafiq:

You'd have to listen to me to say, Actual stacks of evidence.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And then I you moving on to those practical things we could be doing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and I'm definitely gonna take that challenge away to have a look at our

Carrie-Ann Wade:

apprenticeship levy in our organization and see what we can do in that from

Carrie-Ann Wade:

a communications point of view.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But I guess some of the people listening to this podcast will

Carrie-Ann Wade:

be in leadership roles, so they can take that sort of action.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But some people listening are likely to be aspiring to the next step in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

their communications career and maybe feel a little bit like, oh, I don't

Carrie-Ann Wade:

feel like I have the opportunity or the power to do some of that sort of thing.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But is there a.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Practical thing that people listening to this podcast could do today or tomorrow

Carrie-Ann Wade:

to encourage people to consider a career in public sector comms, do you think?

Shak Rafiq:

Consider a career in public sector comms.

Shak Rafiq:

I would say there's community sat on your doorstep who you could reach out to.

Shak Rafiq:

There's HR teams, if you're working a large provider organization

Shak Rafiq:

who do recruitment events.

Shak Rafiq:

Why is there not a comms, an involvement's done?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

That is really practical.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

There's no arguing with that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

That could take one person out of your team to do that, couldn't it?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

In terms of looking how we recruit and where we recruit from?

Shak Rafiq:

Just trying to find a clever quote, so apologies.

Shak Rafiq:

It looks as I'm doing something else,

Shak Rafiq:

but,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

No.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love a clever quote

Shak Rafiq:

But I'm gonna come to it towards the end, if that's okay.

Shak Rafiq:

If I find it,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

If you find it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love it.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

We have talked a lot about, recruitment and I'm gonna take us on a slight tangent,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

we talked a lot about recruitment because obviously some of this conversation is

Carrie-Ann Wade:

about how we attract people into a career in communications in the public sector.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But once they're in, how do we keep them here?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Because I feel privileged enough that I've reached a fairly senior level in

Carrie-Ann Wade:

my comms career, and a lot of that has been done so, Working in the nhs and

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I've been very well supported to do that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

But obviously there are only a finite number of senior comms roles

Carrie-Ann Wade:

in the nhs, but that's probably a whole other podcast episode about

Carrie-Ann Wade:

how we feel about some of that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So how do we keep people when people are being dangled the car of moving into the

Carrie-Ann Wade:

private sector for more money or maybe less stress because the NHS is a very.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Sort of political place to work in of interest in How do we retain

Carrie-Ann Wade:

good comms people in the NHS Shak?

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I'm throwing that one in as a bit of an unprepared question.

Shak Rafiq:

that's fine.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think it's a great question.

Shak Rafiq:

There's something about showing and demonstrating that you will develop them

Shak Rafiq:

to get them ready for their next role.

Shak Rafiq:

I always talk about, sometimes when I challenge members of my team, I'm

Shak Rafiq:

not challenging you because I'm trying to be difficult, but I want you.

Shak Rafiq:

When you go into that interview room to be the best person to be

Shak Rafiq:

able to demonstrate the range of abilities you bring into that role.

Shak Rafiq:

So when we talk about developing people it's really critical

Shak Rafiq:

that we look at different ways.

Shak Rafiq:

So are we giving them enough work to keep them going nine to five, but are we

Shak Rafiq:

giving them enough that stretches them?

Shak Rafiq:

Are we offering people an opportunity to lead pieces of work?

Shak Rafiq:

Make mistakes probably don't make the same mistake twice, cuz that then

Shak Rafiq:

suggest maybe we, we need to find out how we learn from those mistakes.

Shak Rafiq:

And then there's something about what opportunities exist in our wider system.

Shak Rafiq:

So are there shadowing opportunities?

Shak Rafiq:

Are there opportunities?

Shak Rafiq:

Again, I know HR people have to work really hard and we have more duty

Shak Rafiq:

bound by HR law, but is there a way of offering short term secondment

Shak Rafiq:

opportunities into other teams so you understand different environments?

Shak Rafiq:

So again, when you, when that opportunity presents itself to, to

Shak Rafiq:

take on a role that's, a step above the one you are on now, you've got the

Shak Rafiq:

opportunity to show how you will shine.

Shak Rafiq:

And I think there's something about.

Shak Rafiq:

The thing that always comes up for me is giving people a chance.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Yeah.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I love that.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

That's definitely a strong theme with you, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And I could talk to you probably all afternoon about this and I'm sure we've

Carrie-Ann Wade:

spent lots of time talking about this before, but I'm conscious that our

Carrie-Ann Wade:

listeners might well be listening to this while they're on a run or doing

Carrie-Ann Wade:

some on in and or whatever they're doing when they listen to the podcast.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And are probably like ready for us.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

To wrap up a bit now, there a kind of question wanted to pose to you, which

Carrie-Ann Wade:

is really unfair cuz I didn't give you any prep time for this question,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Shaq, but a lot of conversations I have with other communications leaders

Carrie-Ann Wade:

is about what would be different if.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Comms people ruled the world.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

And that might be a bit grand cuz maybe ruling the world is too But

Carrie-Ann Wade:

if a comms person was in charge tomorrow what do you think would be

Carrie-Ann Wade:

different and in a good way, what would a comms person bring to that if

Carrie-Ann Wade:

they were the chief decision maker?

Shak Rafiq:

Probably two things.

Shak Rafiq:

One I always call it the unwelcome mirror, so I'm being really strong

Shak Rafiq:

in terms of those decisions.

Shak Rafiq:

The decisions we're making and taking, are they the right ones?

Shak Rafiq:

And giving that real sense check and bringing in all our stakeholders, what

Shak Rafiq:

is the impact on all our stakeholders.

Shak Rafiq:

That's something that we bring that maybe others might not, that or they will

Shak Rafiq:

in a different way to us and I think.

Shak Rafiq:

Again, I don't want to say all the professions don't, but that links to

Shak Rafiq:

maybe some of the common sense approaches to some of the problems we face.

Shak Rafiq:

So those are two things and comms is a strategic business function.

Shak Rafiq:

So we bring the level of insight because we're getting it from lots of sources.

Shak Rafiq:

So somebody somewhere needs to collect that and turn it into more manageable data

Shak Rafiq:

so that, that's a skillset set in itself.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Brilliant.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Sorry I threw that one in as a bit of a curve ball question.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I appreciate I appreciate you thinking on the spot to answer that one.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So have you found your, your quote

Shak Rafiq:

Yeah,

Carrie-Ann Wade:

end Shak so to you?

Shak Rafiq:

But I'm, it's got the F-bomb in there, so I'm gonna take it

Shak Rafiq:

out cuz I just realized I'm not gonna say who said it because I've just

Shak Rafiq:

mentioned there was an F-bomb on this.

Shak Rafiq:

But I was at an event and somebody just said this and I thought, this is so

Shak Rafiq:

true of everything we've said today.

Shak Rafiq:

And that was get out of your comfort zone and go and change the world.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

There could be no better ending to this podcast episode

Carrie-Ann Wade:

than that, Shak, so I don't want to ruin it, but I'm in total agreement.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So I'm going to echo that advice to anybody listening, and I know it's

Carrie-Ann Wade:

something that you are doing on.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Pretty much a daily basis with you and your team, Shak.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So thank you.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I hope people have found it useful and I'm sure this will be a conversation

Carrie-Ann Wade:

we continue at a future date.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

So thank you so much for your time, Shak.

Shak Rafiq:

Thank you as well.

Shak Rafiq:

Carrie -Ann, thank you for all the work you are doing as well.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Oh, thank you so much.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Behind the Bob.

Carrie-Ann Wade:

I'd love for you to subscribe on your favourite podcast platform

Carrie-Ann Wade:

and leave a rating or a review..

Carrie-Ann Wade:

You can also engage with me over on the socials..

Carrie-Ann Wade:

Find me on Instagram and Twitter @catspjs_uk catch up soon!

Show artwork for Behind the Bob

About the Podcast

Behind the Bob
Diary of a Comms Director
Welcome to Behind the Bob, Diary of a Comms Director with me, Carrie-Ann Wade.

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career. You’ll hear from me about my experiences and insights and there might even be a special guest or two popping up.

Behind the Bob gives you a sneak peek into life as a comms director and provides you with all the "behind the scenes" knowledge to help you thrive as a communications leader.


About your host

Profile picture for Carrie-Ann Wade

Carrie-Ann Wade

Carrie-Ann Wade is a communications director in the NHS with over 20 years of communications and marketing experience. She is also founder of Cat’s Pajamas Communications which focuses on mentoring communications professionals to grow and thrive in their careers.

She has most recently been a finalist in the inaugural Comms Hero Fearless Trailblazer award and shortlisted in the National Facilitation Awards 2023. She was named one of F:entrepreneur's #ialso100 2020 top female entrepreneurs and business leaders, and Cat’s Pajamas has been recognised in Small Business Saturday's UK #SmallBiz100, as a business with impact.

She is one part of the How to Take the Lead collaborative, and cohost of a podcast with the same name, exploring the challenges and opportunities of modern day leadership. Carrie-Ann also hosts ‘Behind The Bob, Diary of a Comms Director’, a podcast supporting aspiring communications leaders.

Find out more via www.cats-pajamas.co.uk